Vaccination Requirement.

[Richlist]

Do members think it reasonable for a landlord to refuse a tenant application if they can't provide proof of Covid 19 vaccination ?

[Grampa]

At the present moment in time no its not reasonable but if it becomes more the "norm" in the future for flying, travelling and entry to other establishments it may not appear so unreasonable. You then have the legalities aspect to the question which I don't know the answer.

On a personal level, provided all the safety precautions are taken in the lead up to the tenancy commencing  I don't have an issue. 

AIRBNB and holiday homes are another conversation though.  

[Melboy]

Ah!  Thank you Richlist  thought about raising a similar topic myself this morning.

Can I just say at this time on this topic that I received a text last evening at 6pm from my surgery to attend a Covid vaccination centre at 0850 this morning ( Thursday ). My Wife was also invited so we both went even though she is 5 years younger than me.

I have to say it was like a well oiled machine and it was faultless.  The Covid vaccination centre was in the big GWR railway museum engine shed. Firstly you formed an airport style queue to the reception desks to have your details taken and issued a pass to join the other 8 lane airport style queue, social distancing of course, waiting to be called forward behind the screens for your Covid jab.

My Nurse was exceptionally pleasant and we passed a light joke or two and that was it. In at 0850 and out at 0905 and back to the car park. I was informed that they are doing 1,450 people today and every day for as long as it takes.

Anyway yes, I am taking back a property in 10 days time and I will have to deal with trade persons coming into the rental for jobs to be done and of course prospective tenant viewings. I shall take all the necessary precautions that I have to take.

[Richlist]

I have a property advertised for sale since before Christmas and have had a number of viewings. It's being advertised by my Estate Agents but I've agreed to handle all the viewings myself in exchange for a reduced selling fee.

Just to give you a flavour of what we do......we meet at the property at the agreed time, I go outside, the buyers go inside and look around the property, we all wear masks, no masks means no viewings. When they are finished viewing they meet me outside, we social distance and we exchange questions & answers. It seems to work and Melboy could use the same method for his tenant viewings.

I think later this year, as Grampa has suggested, it will be entirely reasonable to refuse any tenant application if they cannot provide proof of vaccination.

The issue is likely to be......how do they provide proof ?

[Carryon Regardless]

I wasn't aware that proof of vaccination was being provided, but I'm learning.

But if a potential T replied that they would rather provide proof of anti body immunity would that suffice as an alternative.

Then when a T replies that they are under 70, 60 ,50 ,not in the at risk category so haven't been offered a vaccination, would that mean they should return when older or vaccinations are given to the younger?

Those poor eu citizens would have no chance of getting accom' in the UK. But I suppose that saves us checking on their right to reside anyway.

For me as long as they are willing to provide a replacement smoke detector (no need for a carbon monoxide jobbo), and they don't possess a long brush I'll be happy.

[Richlist]

Well perhaps the way to look at it is this:

* No vaccination......tenant has more of a chance to catch virus, be off work/out of work, suffer longer term /after effects = risk to rent payments.

Why accept an applicant that carries a higher risk of defaulting on rent payments ? Some landlords may be prepared to accept the risk in exchange for higher rent payments.

But, I don't want them anymore than I want smokers, dog owners or benefits tenants.

Whoops!!!!! Not allowed to say that am i. To late I've said it now √

 

[Melboy]

5 hours ago, Richlist said:

I

The issue is likely to be......how do they provide proof ?

I can answer that  😷  You are given a NHS card showing batch number and date on your card and that you have or will have both recorded vaccination jabs written on it.  I have my NHS card from this morning.

[Grampa]

2 hours ago, Richlist said:

 

Why accept an applicant that carries a higher risk of defaulting on rent payments ? Some landlords may be prepared to accept the risk in exchange for higher rent payments.

That thought didnt even cross my mind and if the tenant is of working age it is/has to be a consideration so maybe more consideration has to go into how by what means the rent is being paid. If by pension, house sale, benefits it maybe seen as a lower risk.

But Grandma just came up with a good point "what about HMO'S" now, with shared kitchens and bathrooms??  My first thought to that was "I'm glad I dont have or manage any" otherwise a whole block could go down with it.

[kerbut]

We have 3 holiday lets using Booking dot com and they are not accepting bookings from guests without a vaccine apparently.

 

[Richlist]

That has to be the way to go.

[Richlist]

13 hours ago, Melboy said:

I can answer that  😷  You are given a NHS card showing batch number and date on your card and that you have or will have both recorded vaccination jabs written on it.  I have my NHS card from this morning.

Thanks for that info Melboy. That's the first I've heard that people being vaccinated are given a card.

My concern is that if they are simple things then copies will be for sale on EBay within a few days......so beware. There are lots of people who dont & won't agree to the vaccine.

[Carryon Regardless]

Yes I saw the vaccine card on Google last eve.

As yet I haven't seen that the vaccine offers immunity advantage over natural immunity.

In the UK at least we aren't offered opportunity to take the anti body test. Other countries use this to decide not only if the vaccine should be used but to prioritise the use of the limited supplies of it.

People could make a more informed decision on taking the vaccine after an anti body test.

For private bodies, such as us and pubs and restaurants for instance I see it as free will to reject those considered undesirable. But it may get close to or become bigoted. Should a vaccine denier wear an 'L for leper' so to be identified?

With so many vaccines available and actually a few Pharma's have fallen by the wayside in their attempts to produce a vaccine, it is only a matter of time before there will be a league table of vaccine efficacy (provided by the media no doubt). Will the winning vaccines be the ones acceptable?

With (which ever) vaccine efficacy and even the long term affects (of which ever vaccine)being unknown, and with so many acting in panic (eu at the moment being one) I think it is far too early to be making defined decisions around this. We will all be 'a little' better informed by summer.

[fionaf]

I am exceptionally way down the vaccine priority list (less than 50, no pre-existing conditions, not a health worker), I wouldn't get my jab for ages. I also get an exceptionally good income which under pre-covid conditions would be a good indicator of suitability. I think it is too early to insist on a jab, if ever. I also have a friend who has 101 allergies and she has nearly died from past flu vaccine so is reticent about the covid jab. She is an ideal renter, good worker, charity sector worker, reliable income, just has a dodgy immune system, she can't even visit my home where I have cats. I wouldn't want to preclude someone like this person I am using as an example from renting. It will always be about judgment based on a combination of factors. 

As an aside, I took my aged mum for a vaccine on Saturday, very well run, very good set up, easy to book, very impressed. I am ever so enjoying (maybe not the right word, but I am!) the news about the EU debacle about their procurement process, more than I probably should be, as a Brexiteer I feel my instincts about the bloc not being caring, well run, having global interests at heart etc have had their airing. 

Mum has a neat little card verifying her first of two jabs (with space for the second), hand written, not too difficult to forge I would suspect, not that I am an expert or wanting to forge, but it seems just very very basic proof of her jab. Second jab isn't due until third week of April and this is someone aged 80. As a landlord I feel the 'right to rent' rules are already too much putting on us as doing the checks and balances and where will it stop if we have immigration, covid jabs, morality checks, social media checks, etc etc thrust upon us, where will it end and what clear criteria will there ever be? 

[Richlist]

I was not suggesting that it should be made mandatory for tenants to provide proof of covid19 vaccination.

The first point I would make is that it's generally accepted that there is a shortage of accommodation in the UK. 

Any tenant wanting to rent needs to understand......and many of them don't......that they are in a competition with all the other people who want to rent the same property. Its often not about ' first come, first served ' but about what that applicant brings to the tenancy.  The landlord is looking for the best tenant just as the tenant is looking for the best property. It's no good playing the sympathy card, most landlords take a business decision and it isn't ruled by their heart.

Having a dodgy immune system or 101 allergies or choosing not to be vaccinated puts them at a distinct dissadvantage when it comes to looking for the best rental accomodation. There are so many tenants who tick all of the boxes..... plus even some boxes that I haven't thought of......that letting to someone who carries more risk is a bad business decision. No matter how hard someone tries to persaude me otherwise they will not change my mind.

[Melboy]

So I guess the answer is that if you were ask a prospective tenant if they were a card carrying Covid vaccinated person it would put a tick in the box as they would be suitable to you as a tenant. In other words a desirable pre-condition rather than a mandatory pre-condition.

I'll let you know how I get on with that one over the next few weeks.  😃

 

[Richlist]

Your description is almost perfect. It would tick that box and contribute to their overall suitability and certainly make them more attractive than an applicant without a vaccination card. But, I thought we had already established that it's introduction would need to be some time in the future. It's far to early at the present time because only approx' 9 million have had their first jab.

[Carryon Regardless]

But as and when the population are vaccinated to the herd immunity critical level the need for others to be proven immune (and many will have natural immunity from exposure) will be less important.

It varies from expert to expert but say the said 60% immunity is reached the virus becomes far less prevalent as there are far less contagious carriers. While Covid is now here for good it has then become managed, much like the threat that still exists from many other viruses.

Just another little aside. It is too early to be sure that side affects of various vaccines are not going to present other health issues. There may be a desire to reject those if they are likely to be a less reliable T due to such, if such becomes apparent in the future. Many are showing allergic reactions.

Naturally developed immunity alongside vaccine introduced immunity are our best hope to overcome the pandemic and get to whatever a new normal will be, but it wouldn't amaze me if we see some health downsides.

 

[Grampa]

I read over the weekend that "normal" flu has nearly disappeared due to lock down and social distancing. It was 14 per 100,000 at this time of year and has now reduced to about 1.5 per 100,000.

But I guess those figure will just increase steadily  back to normal when lock down ends?

[Richlist]

It won't make any difference......if you don't have a vaccination card proving you've been vaccinated you ain't gonna rent from me.

There are people in their 20's & 30's who have been hospitalised with Covid. There are many under 50 suffering from what's called Long Covid. It's not only people over 70 who are dying from Covid.

We are not safe until everyone at risk has been vaccinated.

 

[Carryon Regardless]

I suppose what I have failed to appreciate is that many here will be experiencing greater numbers of covid examples close to them.

If follows that those coming from say Slough might get a "not even a viewing sorry", while those from South Derbyshire (but not Derby) may will be invited in with a smile "but no hug Duck (Derbyshire expression, quakers I know)". 

Here in the High Peak our numbers are good but not fantastic. But does that mean we are merely behind with natural immunity? Will Slough prove to be covid safe before we are?

But don't forget to reject anyone coming down from Glasgee, as you won't understand them.

We do miss the pub for topping up our anti bodies.

 

[Melboy]

False copies of NHS Covid clear patient documents now available for sale on eBay.

( Now removed! )

[adonaghy]

I work for the nhs and about to have my second vaccination. I registered my details signing up for appointments but now my managers writing to all staff asking in my area  if we have had the vaccine, are waiting for an appointment or declining. It made me wonder how you would prove you had the vaccine when the very system you received it from cannot extract information 

[Melboy]

      Did you not receive an NHS Vaccination Card.  Your name, batch number, date etc.?

[Richlist]

33 minutes ago, adonaghy said:

I work for the nhs and about to have my second vaccination. I registered my details signing up for appointments but now my managers writing to all staff asking in my area  if we have had the vaccine, are waiting for an appointment or declining. It made me wonder how you would prove you had the vaccine when the very system you received it from cannot extract information 

Seems to me you are in the ideal place to find out. Ask your line manager, point out the problem and if he can't answer escalate up the chain of command. You won't be taking a flight, going to the cinema or renting a property unless you can prove you've been done.

If that doesn't work write to your local councillor & then your MP. This is typical of all Governments. If a system can be messed up they will do it. Everyone could see this is a problem waiting to happen. No proof means you will remain in a permanent semi lockdown.

[Carryon Regardless]

I wasn't aware there was 'the vaccine'. Surely its down to luck which is administered, but the 2nd dose being imminent would point to AZ.

Are we in a police state or can you reply that you consider the information to be personal? Are all NHS managers suitably authorised to request details of your health status and prescription drugs taken.

But to add to your recognition of the NHS lack of info sharing,  even for those with authority. Chesterfield infirmary request me to get a blood test at my local surgery. I am then asked to obtain the results so I can let the specialist know the results at Chesterfield. "It's a different area so I can't find out through NHS records." Sort of leaves you wondering how a distant hospital would know of possible allergies come  emergency treatment following an accident. But I experienced similar when I took Mum to Blackpool infirmary. Passed round 3 departments and each needed to request the same information.