Mis Information

[Carryon Regardless]

Over the years we develop understandings of the legislation that governs this industry. It may be from training, research, some guy on the internet or where ever. We then have beliefs that we work by, so here are a couple that I 'apparently' had wrong.

I met with the Housing Enforcement Officer yesterday and others, you may remember the running thread regarding the North Wales issues.

My flats have smoke detectors, a couple are mains powered. I was of the belief that we had no legal responsibility to provide smoke detectors but I still do. The HEO states that we should instal mains powered due to the 2004 Housing Act. This provisions for mains powered detectors was due to consultation with the Fire Service and is now mandatory in England and Wales since 2005.

Not quite so definite but of interest.

Where do Landlords stand regarding Smoke Alarms in rented property

Another belief I had was that if we had served a repossession notice (S21 for example) the HEO had no power to enforce an improvement notice, this HEO states this to be incorrect. Something that maybe I should have clarified was our ability to progress a repossession notice if an improvement notice is created after our service of a notice.

It doesn't apply to my situation anyway as the difficult to flush WC and the non running cold tap in the kitchen are far less of a concern than the disgusting state the T has created for himself and to himself. attempting to make his points against me as he stood swaying at 10:15(AM) was pitiful , but a little comical.

[Melboy]

I supply two battery operated smoke alarms per property along with 2 spare batteries. The tenant signs a form document to say that they are fitted and working and he/she will be responsible for maintaining them.

When I do my property check if I find that the smoke alarm is not working due to battery removal then my tenant is informed of my dis-satisfaction at his irresponsiblity in no uncertain terms.

The downside to this and the only time ever I have ever had a problem was with a tenant last year who actually took my smoke alarm away when he vacated which was an exercise in stupidity to say the least as it cost him £15 out of his deposit for me to supply and fit a new one. Why did he do that? ask COR as he is the forum expert on dealing with Numb-Nuts.

[Carryon Regardless]

Well Mel the "Why did he do that?" is clear as mud to any reasonably minded person. I stopped asking the why years ago cos then you get into the reasons why not and to these 'more clever than I' tenants (ex tenants) can't understand my reasoning. I have learnt that to hit my head against such brick walls produces no positive result.

In truth the question is too complicated for me, sorry.

[Grampa]

Re: Mains powered smoke alarms

As someone who try's to keep on top of the law and all the changes etc I was slightly horrified when reading COR's post to think I have overlooked something for the last 10 years.

But thinking about it I think it is either a odd law that only Wales has which doesn't effect me as Wales does have a few oddities regarding housing law. The EHO officer was referring to HMO's which theses alarms are mandatory or the EHO is just incorrect or trying scare tactics. Or it could be your councils policy for properties with HB tenants

I had a fire officer come into my office a year ago trying to tell me it was now law but when asked for the specific part of the housing law he couldn't come up with the goods.

I would put it in writing and request the specific part of the housing he is referring to as you cannot find it. .

[Melboy]

I can definitely confirm that it is not the law in England to have mains powered smoke alarms but you do have to provide smoke alarms so it's your choice as to what you have fitted.

I have no doubt that mains powered fitted smoke alarms will become law eventually.

[Chestnut]

Similar comment to that about Fire Escapes. If in doubt of advice, ask what regs. or statutes it comes from and check oneself.

Advice given by others will always direct towards diminishing the risk, and could be a policy rather than statutory law. In the absence of a binding requirement it ultimately falls to the landlord to assess the risk and act accordingly.

Building Regs. about mains smoke alarms that I read state 'should' not 'must'. I think also it depends on type of property (house or flat) but I didn't get that far.

[Mortitia]

I too find myself blighted with Mel's scenario of tenants (with children) complimenting me on the provision of quality smoke alarms and on leaving I find batteries are missing (especially in kitchens) or whole thing has been taken.

Thanks for that tip of getting a signed document as to maintenance of alarm - another form added to my collection!

To retro fit a wired system in a property would be very costly and look awful.

A tip I was given by a very experienced landlord early in my career still stands. When confronted by a council person or similar trying to destroy you with unsound legislation ask for the specific reference to that statute. It works - nothing has ever been put before me.

[Melboy]

Here is a copy of mine. As far as I am concerned it a legal document and if anything was to go wrong I have clear evidence that I have fulfilled by Landlord obligations by providing smoke alarms.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Smoke Alarm Certificate & Record.

The Property:

Landlord:

Address:

Telephone number:

The Tenant/s :

This property has been provided with a smoke alarm/s. At the commencement of this tenancy the smoke alarm/s have been fitted with new batteries and tested for correct operation.

Please be aware that the tenancy agreement requires that you as tenant/s ensure that the smoke alarm/s are operable at all times, to test for correct operation of the smoke alarm/s on a regular basis (suggest weekly) and to replace the batteries with new ones as and when required.

I/we hereby confirm that the smoke alarm/s have been tested in our presence on entry to this tenancy and are in full working order. I/we fully accept our responsibilities regarding the maintenance of the smoke alarm/s throughout the term of our occupancy and hereby absolve the landlord and/or the managing agent from responsibility should I/we fail to comply.

Name(s) 1. .............................................. 2................................................

Tenant Signature: 1................................................. 2..................................................

Date:

File: .

_____________________________________________________________________________________

[kerbut]

I use the one on the Landlord zone website , I have just replaced 2 smoke alarms in a flat I let last week , I bought from Toolstation 2 smoke alarms

called Fire Angel ,they have a 10 year battery life ,the fire brigade fitted a pair in our house last year (F.O.C.) , so I figured they must be good if they supply and fix them.

[Richlist]

Part of the confusion over wired smoke alarm systems is I believe due to wired smoke alarms being part of the building regulations for NEW build property. I think that's been part of the regulations since around 1990.

I don't know if property built after 1990 (when wired system requirements came into force) can have the wired system replaced by battery operated devices.

CoR.....Whats the age of these properties ?

[Carryon Regardless]

My properties, the flats that is, were built in 1986.

The regs I think you refer to came about in 1991, according to the HEO. He repeated a couple of times that properties built prior to 1991 'may' need a better fire protection system. This he intended to research further especially after I considered that he may be confusing my purpose builts with HMO conversions.

I haven't requested the specific regs he was referring to and apart from him generally citing the HA of 2004, coming into force during 2005, I have no more info. 'But' he did seem confident, for whatever value that may turn out to be.

Rather than challenge this guy, who let's face it has been considerate of my position during this episode of Welshenders, I would spend £10 or so per flat and pick up a 230 volt feed from a ceiling rose, no great deal in my view.

I can see where ambiguity can arise here though.

For my own previous home I installed 12 volt detector's' that were fed from the intruder alarm system. In the event the system gave off a different tone to that of an intruder alert. Here the detectors were no longer battery powered, as is desired, and the alarm would be more effective than individual 'not' linked detectors. But to be fed via the 12 volt transformer / (difficult to remove battery) battery of the intruder alarm system would likely cause an inspector to call for mains powered, cos' that's what's written.

Also in one of the flats I had sited a mains powered detector away from any ceiling rose, away from the kitchen and nuisance alarms actually. It looks like any detector and was assumed by the HEO to be battery powered.

I have 1 flat in a block of 13, this is much closer to home. The block is local council managed. A couple of years ago they had a programme of improving smoke detectors. The 'engineer' convinced my T he had authority, removed my good battery powered detector leaving 2 holes in the ceiling, mounted another battery operated smoke detector less than 12 inches away. I couldn't work why, but you will be familiar with my cynicism toward thems that knows best. In this case though I'll wait for the HEO's letter of suggestions and thank him for his helping me understand better.After all I don't know when another T might not like me anymore.

[Mortitia]

I bought from Toolstation 2 smoke alarms

called Fire Angel ,they have a 10 year battery life ,the fire brigade fitted a pair in our house last year (F.O.C.) , so I figured they must be good if they supply and fix them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope these weren't the ones that were slammed in a recent Which report?

A couple of weeks ago at home we were woken at 2am with our hard wired fire alarm sounding. Nothing found. Went back to bed and same thing 2 hours later. These 2 were installed in 2009 during a major refurb.

Hubby immediately tested the Duracell back up batteries, thought they were down a bit and bought new. Same problem next night (why is is always at night?)

We decided that one of the 2 units was faulty so bought 2 Kidde ones off Amazon with a 15 year guarantee and I'll make sure I keep the paperwork.

Thanks for that form Mel.

[Carryon Regardless]

A few years ago I fitted the Fire Angel type that goes into a ceiling rose, the lamp then goes into the smoke detector.

The idea seemed good as fitted on landings each time the light was used it would recharge the internal cell, no batteries to faff with and essentially mains powered.

Then T were complaining that they kept beeping. In some cases this was due to them not using the landing light so the cell had run down.

Others had flicked the light switch a couple of times in error and this sent the smoke detector into test mode bleeping once a minute for 12 minutes, in the late / early hours this was a nuisance.

Then in voids the cell would run down and would need recharging and would be bleeping for a good while while doing that.

All in all I found them less ideal than I thought they would be and now I have none fitted.

[Melboy]

Just for the record mine are Kidde. Still the best imo.

Battery operated and I replace them every 5 years .......or when they have been nicked.

[Richlist]

Come on folks....pull yourself together....REALLY......how difficult can it be ?

1. Fit a smoke alarm on each floor, check the batteries are working, identify them on the inventory, check they are working at each 3 monthly inspection and at tenant change over.

2. Fit a fire blanket in the kitchen.

JOB DONE

The chances of any of you ACTUALLY having your property catch fire is incredibly small anyway. I'm sure, like me, you have many other, equally important things to concern yourself with. Worrying about wether tenants have taken the battery out of the smoke alarm is pretty low on my list of priorities..

[Carryon Regardless]

2. the fire blanket has a pretty high risk of causing injury if not used correctly.

If not used as a shield when covering the flames burns become likely. Imagine someone holding the corners and placing over the fire, their hands are open to the flames.

Then imagine someone looking over the blanket to see what's happening, their face is open to the flames.

If thrown over such as a chip pan tipping of the chip pan becomes likely.

All sounds like common sense but not many of my T's have that. I wouldn't supply a fire blanket.

I can only hope that they wouldn't throw water onto a burning chip pan as that creates an inferno.

[Richlist]

I think you will find that statistically you have far more chance of your car catching fire than your property.

In a car there is virtually NO opportunity to extinguish as very few drivers carry extinguishers.

[Melboy]

I think you will find that statistically you have far more chance of your car catching fire than your property.

In a car there is virtually NO opportunity to extinguish as very few drivers carry extinguishers.

Back in the early 90's I had a car that had a factory fitted engine compartment fire extinguisher fitted.

The previous owner had a near death experience in escaping from a car fire once and from that time on all his new cars had fire extinguishers fitted.

[Carryon Regardless]

The HEO has found the time to write to me. The upshot is that I now have a Hazard Awareness Notice - Section 29 (Category 2 ) for the 2 flats where the 'concerns' were raised. He hasn't been any more specific with quoting legislation than that above.

Purpose built flats 'should' be provided with a working smoke alarm with a minimum 5 year batter life, no that's not my mistake forgetting the 'y' but his. He states a preference for mains wired. As I feel more stuffed than assisted by the state if that's what he wants then he is welcome to fit them.

Where my ex tenant has damaged both consumer units (peak and off peak) with live terminals now exposed, he expresses concern over their condition, I had said there was no choice here but to replace. He does describe 'it' as an RCD, there are 2 and neither have an RCD. On replacement there is again no choice so they will have RCD protection incorporated.

"It is 'recommended' that any flooring in a bathroom is non impervious". This is for hygene reasons. I often use bitumen backed carpet tiles. I guess we must assume that tenants have no capability to clean, actually I wouldn't wish to argue that one.

Aside from 2 items in bold where a hot tap does not work in the kitchen and the toilet did not flush effectively that was it. I had repaired the toilet a few weeks back and for me it flushed fine. The tenant didn't tell me of the tap but some how I should know. Anyway I think those items can wait until the tenant has departed.

Words used such as should be and preferable suggest to me that we aren't legislated to provide smoke alarms and impervious bathroom floor coverings. In the case of a tenant (or guest or worse child) dying from smoke inhalation in one of our properties I would imagine a Barrister would be looking for the return of capital punishment for us though.

[Chestnut]

When I worked on drafting standards I was taught to avoid using 'should' and use "is/are to be", as in, for example "gloves are to be worn".

If not mandatory, state "gloves are recommended to be worn". Never use 'should'!

But times and use of English have changed.

[Melboy]

Command words.

eg.

"Smoke alarms are to serviceable at all times and batteries are to be replaced when run down".

[Harry Fisher]

I use the one on the Landlord zone website , I have just replaced 2 smoke alarms in a flat I let last week , I bought from Toolstation 2 smoke alarms

called Fire Angel ,they have a 10 year battery life ,the fire brigade fitted a pair in our house last year (F.O.C.) , so I figured they must be good if they supply and fix them.

I have had three smoke alarms in my own house for over 20 years with no problems, last year the fire brigade came round and fitted three more of the Fire Angel type, they glued them to the ceiling with 'no more nails', they have been nothing but trouble, making weird sounds for no reason and the '10 year' batteries failing in months, I had to take them down and have been meaning to phone the fire brigade to sort it out.