chickpea Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 We had our gas safety certificate renewed in October last year. Today we've received an invoice for £40, for a visit by the plumber in December, citing "trouble with the heating - bled radiators and adjusted by-pass valve". First question - does the gas certificate have any bearing on how the boiler is working, ie should/would it have picked up a by-pass valve issue? Second question - does it really cost £40 to blled radiators and is that something you'd expect your tenants to do themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Who authorised the works ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Not us! The tenants kept saying the house was cold. We said that we would speak to our plumber and ask him to check things when he did the gas safety check...but the LA sent in their own plumber who ONLY did the gas safety check. 2 months later, a different plumber is sent in and we have just had a statement (not an invoice, since it's been deducted from our rent) for £40 for bleeding the rads and adjusting the by-pass valve - which, to me having done a quick Google, sounds like an excuse for a call-out fee... Have just left a message with the LA and hubby is ringing them to argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 This depends on your agreement with the LA, are they authorised by you to authorise works off their own back or should they consult you first ? Often there is agreement for them to arrange to a max value without referring to you. The £40 sounds reasonable to me, I wouldn't want to attend a property for less (as a tradesman, as a LL I've no flippin choice). Mels's the best to comment on the by pass valve adjustment, I've only seen them preset to 3 bar. Many relieve over pressure through them, although I prefer not to as I've seen to many weeping afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 They are meant to call us first to ask if we want them to send a plumber out. I'm not suggesting the £40 is unreasonable for a call-out, more that it was actually a case of needing to bleed the radiators...which IMO should have been done by the tenants. I suspect that, once in the property, the plumber made an incidental adjustment to the by-pass valve - but I'm dubious that was the cause of the house being cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 My other arguement is that we said we would get this looked at when the gas cert. was done - but the LA's arranged that without talking to us too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Ah my mistake, it's the pressure relief valve that's 3 bar. Must read posts properly. Must read posts properly. Must read posts properly. Must read posts properly. Must read posts properly. I'll finish those lines later. T's being responsible for bleeding radiators is arguable. After all they don't seem responsible for any other bleeding thing. Whilst it's not over technical, or difficult, I wouldn't assume t's are capable. If they screw it up it becomes our problem anyway. To much pressure they could cause the bypass to weep. Too heavy handed and you may have problems bleeding in future. Careless and the radiator weeps onto your floor covering. If informed you would have had the choice of popping round to do it yourself though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Tridky one to answer Tracey 'cos I am not having all the facts however............. My Son works for 2 LA's One Big one and for Trenner's (on our forum). This is not his full time commitment as he has his own sourced work to be done but I do know for a 100% fact he never would rip anyone off in fact he is the complete opposite. The problem as I see it is that some LA's do have this mark up on their invoices to Landlord's so it is possible you have been subjected to this? Do I think £40 is reasonable? Was he VAT registered? £8 of that invoice is VAT. The Plumber was instructed to attend to a problem and that is what he charges. I think the problem here is with your ex- tenant calling out the plumber and the LA acting on it but you will find most LA's have a clause in the contract where-by they are permitted to call out tradesmen up to a certain monetry figure. I have mentioned this before in the past but as a Landlord your Plumber is your new best friend and it pays to have a good solid reliable local plumber you can call on without invoving an LA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Thanks both. We have a good plumber we use for all our own home stuff - in fact, the 2 plumbers that dealt with the BTL stuff I've mentioned ARE the plumbers we use...well, they used to work as a team, but have now parted company. Both are known to be on the expensive side, and wouldn't rip us off if they knew it work for us they were doing - hence why we would prefer to deal with them direct and have said this to the LA. The ex-tenants whinges about the coldness of the house had been an on-going, monthly complaint in passing every time it came to rent day. All very non-specific, ie no "the radiators are cold" etc. We had had several conversations with the LA and had come to the conclsuion between us that the tenants were just being...unreasonable. Did I mention that they were also complaining that the double glazing was "draughty"?? My conclusion is that the plumber has charged what he would normally charge for such a call out, but that it was a wasted call out and the LA should have spoken to us first. We bleed our radiators at home at the start of putting the heating on every year, as a matter of course. Our management agreement is that the LA will permit repairs to the value of £150 without our authorisation IF they can't get hold of us to authorise (and in an emergency, in particular). They didn't call us, nor was a partially-cold radiator an emergency IMO, so we'll be pushing them to refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Tracey, Push for full refund from LA if you wish, but..... The 'by-pass' valve referred to may be the relief valve fitted in a condensing boiler system with separate motor valves for heating and hot water (known as S plan circuit). When the second motor valve shuts at set stat. temperature the by-pass opens to allow the circulating pump flow to return to boiler as it runs on for a few minutes. This is to prevent the condensing boiler (those without a built-in by-pass - e.g. Worcester) from overheating itself. If this valve was set too low it could have been open and passing when it should be shut, reducing the flow and heat to the rads. (Installation plumbers have been known to use a partially open-all-time in-line tap for this instead of a proper by-pass relief valve. I'm informed that boiler manufacturers may decline warranty if they do so.) I've been interested in heating and done d.i.y. maintenance for years, but didn't pick up on this feature until recently. I.m.o. £40 was good value if the plumber did the bleeding and resetting job correctly - not necessarily a tenant's job. If your property has benefitted from the work, I think the charge would be justified, even though you had not had the opportunity to authorise first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 This is where the landlord needs to attend the property in person and confirm with the tenant that there is a problem with the heating. If this is the case then a phone call to your Plumber and get the problem seen to. Pay the plumber and you have a happy tenant and a happy hassle free landlord. I know from experience dealing with third parties the messages get screwed. Diagnosing combi boiler problems is a difficult from the armchair which is why Heating type Plumbers go on company courses at Worcester Bosch etc etc. to become acredited installers and repairers. My Son has nearly 20 years in the heating and plumbing trade and is a time served 4 year apprentice and even he says with all boilers now they are getting more and more complicated and with that comes the complication of fixing them. At one time with Worcester he actually had to ask then for a simple re-design of one of their boilers because the repair was virtually impossible without a major strip out to get to the component. They did take up his suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Everyone should bookmark the following web site. Its run by a guy called Mike Bryant who is a regular contributor on other forums I use......otherwise I am not connected in any way.......it does contain some extremely useful info:- http://www.miketheboilerman.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I see he has given up on installation work He is probably suffering from "Plumbers Knee" or "Plumbers Back". My Son's knees are shot away and he is not quite 40. Very few "Plumbers" are doing installation work in their 50's. Even with the latest gel knee pads in your overalls plumbing work still does your knees in. I'm surprised he has not got accredations from Worcester/Bosch. The right to display their logo's on your website is worth it's weight in gold as my Son picks up a lot of work from having that Worcester/Bosch licence mainly after his new enquiring Customer has been informed that a call out and fix from one of their engineers you need to take a small mortgage out! Same goes for a Large National Gas Company! No Names!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'm surprised he has not got accredations from Worcester/Bosch. There is probably quite a lot he hasn't got......but he does have a very useful & informative web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'm surprised he has not got accredations from Worcester/Bosch. There is probably quite a lot he hasn't got......but he does have a very useful & informative web site. I wouldn't disagree with that statement. He makes it perfectly clear about DIY gas work and I have the same views as he has and I would say most heating engineers as well. The only point he didn't make is that if you install your own gas boiler under the "competent person" rules and something goes wrong to cause injury or damage then your house insurance will not pay up.....fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Good site Richlist! Mike Bryant clearly explains terms 'condensing' (most modern boilers) and 'combi' (particular type of condensing that doesn't need hot storage tank), but his fully pumped S plan diagram with bypass misses out the valve I previously mentioned that Worcester insisted on (for non-combi). Header tanks preferred to pressurised? - after devastating loft frost failure I've changed to latter - but note it may need re-charging if radiators are bled. As Mel rightly states, boiler systems are getting more and more complicated - for sake of efficiency and safety. The modern church system I keep an eye on has so many lock-outs it's a wonder it's ever working at all !! If your still with us on this one Tracey, perhaps you understand the message re. tenant doing things now ?!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Tara Plumbing Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 Tracey - on your more general point about the tenants complaining the house is cold. This may or may not be true. We have found some people complain rooms are cold when they are over 25 degrees! So you may want to find out what they mean by cold. Room thermometers are very cheap - sometimes free (my GP surgery are giving them away now. If the bedroom is somewhere near 18 degrees and sitting room is 21 when it is cold outside but not freezing then that is normal. And when it dips below freezing outside a standard heating system meeting minimum standards may struggle to bring bring temperatures up to those temperatures. Some people will think these temperatures are low - but they are normal - and meet minimum design standards. Deb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 Feeling cold with central heating can be a common problem, whatever the set temperature. Telling someone what the temperature is makes no difference. When heating is on (thermostat On) and the rads actually radiating, the heat transfer is felt from radiators to one's body - the effect of feeling warm(ed). When thermostat goes Off the rads stop radiating, producing an effect of feeling the heat transfer (almost) go the other way - hence feeling cold even when the temperature drops by only a degree or so in the CH cycle. A bit like averting eyes after gazing through a train window, or even stepping off a long escalator. The nerves don't immediately catch up. CH is no substitute for the warmth of an open fire - if it's not too draughty when the pub door opens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 I usually find that when I'm feeeling cold just 10-15 minutes in my hot tub or sauna warms me up nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 I usually find that when I'm feeeling cold just 10-15 minutes in my hot tub or sauna warms me up nicely. I normally go to Tenerife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted February 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 Thanks for all replies. I completely take the point now that DIY gas engineering isn't the way to go! The issue has served to clarify a point with the LA that we wish to be given details more specific than "the house is cold" from tenants - especially since the tenants in question felt that sealed double glazing units were "draughty". Also, that no-one in the agency knows anything about who called the plumber out... Had they said "the radiators aren,t heating up fully", we would have bled them, before deciding whether there was still a problem that needed a gas engineer. Perfect example has happened with new tenants since I started the topic - emails from LA, saying T can't get oven to work. Phone and ask whether they've switched all necessary switches on. Answer that they've tried everything so need to call professional in to fix it. Scratch head and wonder how oven that was working 100% when last used can suddenly not work at all. Go to the property ourselves, only to find that tenant HASN'T turned knob on as instructed - ta da! Also find that house is toasty warm. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 Around 10 years ago I had a tenant call out a plumber to fix what they thought was a heating problem (there wasn't) and sent ME the bill for £30. I said to them I run a plumbing and heating company, you have the business card for contact. "Oh! we lost that" they said. I said to them well you can pay your own bill for being stupid.......and they did! I wasn't going to. Now talking about tenants and heating problems which is my least favourite subject......... Here are the top two. 1. Radiators cool down as room reaches warm/hot temperature and the radiator thermostatic valve does it job and shuts-off CH hot water supply. Tenant feels radiator .....it's cold'ish.....they will do one of two things.......think it needs bleeding......which it doesn't.....bleed it....and then the pressure will drop in the combi boiler, if fitted, which more often than not will lock the boiler out through lack of system pressure. Never leave a tenant with a rad. bleed key ! 2. Forget to turn the room t'stat up to the correct selected temperature to fire up the boiler........oh! yes! that happens many many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 I've been reading some of the posts about central heating problems on various threads here and there seems to be a recurring factor.....combi boilers. It just seems to me that there are so many ways of screwing up/ shutting down/ creating problems......real or imaginary. Now I have no direct experience with combi boilers...... only with the conventional 'old fashioned' balanced flue type ones......that I'm beginning to think how lucky I am to have managed to avoid them for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 I've been reading some of the posts about central heating problems on various threads here and there seems to be a recurring factor.....combi boilers. It just seems to me that there are so many ways of screwing up/ shutting down/ creating problems......real or imaginary. Now I have no direct experience with combi boilers...... only with the conventional 'old fashioned' balanced flue type ones......that I'm beginning to think how lucky I am to have managed to avoid them for so long. Quite right RL. I could have and I could afford to have an all dancing, all singing, latest CH/HW Combi boiler........but I havn't. I have a 15 year old floor standing boiler which has never gone wrong. It is serviced every year.( free! ) It has CH Fernox protecter in the system. It is uncomplicated. It doesn't have fanned flues or circuit boards that cost £140 every five minutes etc. etc. When it was serviced a couple of weeks ago it was showing an efficiency of around 5% less than a "green" boiler. It will go on and on.......and OK it uses a bit more gas per annum due to it's permanent lit pilot light.... but so what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Tara Plumbing Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Quite right RL. I could have and I could afford to have an all dancing, all singing, latest CH/HW Combi boiler........but I havn't. I have a 15 year old floor standing boiler which has never gone wrong. It is serviced every year.( free! ) It has CH Fernox protecter in the system. It is uncomplicated. It doesn't have fanned flues or circuit boards that cost £140 every five minutes etc. etc. When it was serviced a couple of weeks ago it was showing an efficiency of around 5% less than a "green" boiler. It will go on and on.......and OK it uses a bit more gas per annum due to it's permanent lit pilot light.... but so what. I have looked a lot at this issue. I think the biggest factor - as with so many things - you get what you pay for and you can get quotes for different models of combi with one being more than twice the price of another. Breakdowns and life span - industry standard a modern boiler of any type is expected to last about 12 years. And A big issue identified in the industry is that the quality of installation will have an impact on life span. So making sure it is installed right - flushed system, chemical inhibitors, addition of something like magnaclean should all help give it a long and healthy life. Having said that - if you go for a half price boiler and it only lives half as long - then have to pay for a new one again you are in the same position. Most come with a 5 year parts and labour warranty these days. I have lived in houses with all sort of boilers and personally I love my combi - because insant hot water , always, never runs out - no matter how many people have a shower. Etc. They are also popular because they take up less pace. I must add the reason you hear of so many combis with problems is because the cheapest smallest combi is often installed by people on very tight budgets, if they had paid more for a different model and different installation they probably would be very happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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