Antnkel Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Hi Guys, As I've never done this before so I'd like a bit of help to make sure it's done correctly. I've had a tenant for the last 20 months which has paid on time more or less ( within a week or so ) This month they are now three weeks in arrears, have tried phoning, texting and have today been round to speak in person but no answer to any. So I've posted a letter through the door stating that payment is late and that I've tried contacting them on numerous occasions. If I get no reply and then they become one month and one day late are they in two months arrears? Can I then go for a section 21? Thanks. Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 The S21 is a possession notice with no reason being required, it's yours you want it back. Your thinking of the S8 which is less straight forward but can enable you to try for an award of monies also. If I want repossession my preference, generally, is to S21 and any consideration of recovery of losses to be by County Court (aside from recovery from deposit that is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antnkel Posted July 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Well if I get no response from the tenant all I'll want is possession of the house as quick asap. They are on a 12 month ast would this matter if I want a S21? Thanks. Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 In theory the S8 is faster. But with discretionary clauses and T's being able to raise defences causing a 'need' for reports and the like it may be a less than a reliable way to gain repossession. As you are out of the fixed term the S21 if correct in its completion and served correctly you are able to approach the court for repossession in 2 months (minimum). Realistically it's 4 - 5 months before possession is returned unless the T surrenders which is more common in my experience. If you're close to the end of a tenancy period I would serve a S21 asap. You don't have to progress it. If you're closer to the beginning I would use that time to try and manage them to pay more rents. If they are HB you can try to get that portion of rents paid direct. A phone call to HB should stop them receiving their HB, writing with relevant info a little later when 8 weeks in arrear should see you getting the HB. Although you think this is a bad tenancy the next, unknown, could be worse. Often I prefer to manage the tenancy in place to a better payment situation. After you serve notices more often that's the last you can expect them to pay rents. You wait a significant period with no rent, pay for the court, wait again and maybe pay for a Bailiff. Very often there are repairs and a void and you still don't know what to expect next time round. When to write off a tenancy is a judgement call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antnkel Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I would like them to stay but I'm not geting any commuinication from them now. There's five months left on the ast as from the 10th of this month. I'm going to try and contact again if no reply I will serve the S21. Thanks. Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Sorry I didn't realise you had renewed the AST. The S21 will have no purpose during a fixed term. Here is a good example for not renewing tenancies but allowing them top roll in to a Periodic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antnkel Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yes will not do that in the future! So are you saying it'll be faster to go with a S8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 S8 now or S21 with expiry date to coincide with the end of the fixed term. I've read, here, that with S8 some areas have a lengthy wait period for a court date. The arrears have to be more than the 2months at that time or the repossession will fail. That might be useful for getting dosh anyway but having to do it all again if they go into arrears again is a ball ache. Without communication you are stuffed. It might be that they have temporarily hit the rocks but how do you know ? Mind it'll always be alright next week / month / year / century. 3 weeks isn't scary to me but it does ring alarm bells. Are you sure they are returning each evening and not on holiday ? Is there a G'tor to contact, or even one of the referees ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antnkel Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Right so if the rent was due 10th of last month, the 11th of this month would be two months in arrears and I could apply any time after this? There's no one to contact. They have been late for the past few months and it's been getting graduly worse so maybe their, struggling to manage, which I would try and resolve with them if they respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Lets go through this stage by stage in relation to the arrears. Is this a weekly or monthly tenancy? If its a weekly tenancy then you will need to make sure that you have issued the tenant with a rent book. There are 3 possible statutory grounds for possession for arrears or rent, grounds 8, 10 and 11 you might also have a clause within the tenancy agreement dealing with arrears. Ground 8 is the mandatory ground for possession (if you have a monthly tenancy) you will have to show that your tenant owes 2 months or more rent at the date you serve your s.8 notice and at the date of the court hearing. If you can do this then the court has to give you an order for possession. If you do not currently have 2 months arrears then you can still rely on grounds 10 and 11. Ground 10 relates to just any arrears of rent and Ground 11 delay in payment. In order for you to commence your claim you will need to serve a section 8 notice. It is important that you complete the form correctly the most common mistake relates to the landlord failing to set out the complete text of the ground being relied upon (i see this all the time). You will then have to serve your notice hand delivery is the best possible approach as things always seem to go astray in the post. Once your notice has been served you will have to wait for it to expire (2 weeks) before issuing your claim for possession. If you are relying on grounds 10/11 then court has a discretion to suspend any order for possession on it finding it reasonable to do so. In doing so the court has to make it conditional on payment of rent and an amount towards any arrears (this would fall in with what you want anyway). When preparing your summons you will need to attach a rent statement showing all of the transactions going back up to two years you will also need to attach a copy of the tenancy agreement. The court will charge you an issue fee of £175.00 and you will in due course receive a hearing date (no earlier than 4 weeks no later than 10). Prior to the hearing you will need to file a certificate of service at court (N215) confirming when/how your s.8 notice was served, you should also file an updated rent statement. At the hearing you will need to give evidence on oath confirming the date of the tenancy, date your s.8 notice was served, the level of arrears at the date yoour s.8 notice was served and level of arrears at the date of the hearing. You should confirm that you are seeking an order for possession and fixed costs. Provided you have got your paperwork in order and there is no counterclaim or request for an adjournment you should get your order. Common mistakes are as follows; Landlord fails to serve a s.48 notice (an address for the tenant to serve notices) no rent is due until you do Landlord fails to protect rent deposit, possible counterclaim for 3 times deposit and invalid s.21 notice Landlord fails to undertake repairs, possible counterclaim Landlord fails to complete paperwork properly possible strike out There is no provision within the tenancy agreement to bring a claim under grounds 8/10/11 during the fixed term claim will fail Hope the above helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Quite daunting isn't it ? Its easy to make a mistake and have to start all over again. It could be very cost effective to use a specialist company to handle things for you.......here's a well known one already uused by many: http://www.landlordaction.co.uk/site.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I find their fees too high for what they do, but you pay your money and takes your pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I find their fees too high for what they do, but you pay your money and takes your pick. Yes I can understand that view BUT not everyone has your knowledge or experience. A novice doing it themselves, without knowing EXACTLY the correct method might lead to further delays. Delays equal potential further losses and thats why paying an expert CAN BE very cost effective. The cost is tax deductable so the real cost is immediately reduced by 20% or 40% and there is far less stress/ worry. Perhaps there is even the chance of a negotiated reduction in the standard fees.......if you don't ask you won't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Its not just the cost, I have had to pick up the pieces where landlords have used them (and others similar firms). The main fault seems to be a one size fits all approach. As it stands most courts now have duty solicitors (to help tenants) and they are all well versed in potential defences and know what to look for when the landlord has farmed the matter out to what is in effect a production line. As I said you pays your money and takes your pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Going back to the costs, £117.00 to serve notices. It takes about 18 mins to complete a s.8 and s.21 at a typical charge out rate of £150.00 this would be £45.00. To issue the claim costs £677.00, £175.00 is the issue fee. At best it takes 1 hour max to prepare a claim for possession (rent). They would then typically pass the matter to an agency firm such as LPC who then have one of their solicitors attend the hearing for you. Having spoken to solicitor/agents at court I know they get paid £75.00 per case for attending. For preparing the claim and for the first hearing a fair charge our would be about £300.00. Worst of all is the warrant fee, to issue a warrant in the county court costs £110.00, the form takes 2 minutes to complete. I typically do not charge any time for applying for a warrant because there is nothing to it. If you can find someone who a specialist in landlord and tenant work there are savings to be made in both costs and time. As a point of interest if you look at their website it is full of basic errors and gives me the impression of a slapdash approach. Look at the section that deals with squatters, you click on it Step 1 tell us about your squatter. Step 2 we contact you to take the details about your tenant. Step 3. We begin to take action against your tenant. Spot the error, if I was going to pay nearly 2k for a service I would expect them to get the basics right. Anyway gripe over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 If and I say IF I ever get any serious problems with bad tenants then I shall be using LAW. ( Psss! Don't forget the forum discount LAW. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Its not just the cost, I have had to pick up the pieces where landlords have used them (and others similar firms). The main fault seems to be a one size fits all approach. As it stands most courts now have duty solicitors (to help tenants) and they are all well versed in potential defences and know what to look for when the landlord has farmed the matter out to what is in effect a production line. As I said you pays your money and takes your pick. Do they have 100's of satisfied customers ? No, they probably have 1000's. OK, so there's a few not so satisfied......surely that would apply to many other professional walks of life.....accountants, surveyors, bank managers even the legal bods don't always satisfy. For a novice with little or no experience and no idea of who to contact they could do far worse than using one of the specialists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I bow to your superior knowledge on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I bow to your superior knowledge on this matter. 'The secret of business is knowing something that nobody else knows'...Aristotle Onassis..... but, sarcasm won't help you achieve your goals any quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antnkel Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Lets go through this stage by stage in relation to the arrears. Is this a weekly or monthly tenancy? If its a weekly tenancy then you will need to make sure that you have issued the tenant with a rent book. There are 3 possible statutory grounds for possession for arrears or rent, grounds 8, 10 and 11 you might also have a clause within the tenancy agreement dealing with arrears. Ground 8 is the mandatory ground for possession (if you have a monthly tenancy) you will have to show that your tenant owes 2 months or more rent at the date you serve your s.8 notice and at the date of the court hearing. If you can do this then the court has to give you an order for possession. If you do not currently have 2 months arrears then you can still rely on grounds 10 and 11. Ground 10 relates to just any arrears of rent and Ground 11 delay in payment. In order for you to commence your claim you will need to serve a section 8 notice. It is important that you complete the form correctly the most common mistake relates to the landlord failing to set out the complete text of the ground being relied upon (i see this all the time). You will then have to serve your notice hand delivery is the best possible approach as things always seem to go astray in the post. Once your notice has been served you will have to wait for it to expire (2 weeks) before issuing your claim for possession. If you are relying on grounds 10/11 then court has a discretion to suspend any order for possession on it finding it reasonable to do so. In doing so the court has to make it conditional on payment of rent and an amount towards any arrears (this would fall in with what you want anyway). When preparing your summons you will need to attach a rent statement showing all of the transactions going back up to two years you will also need to attach a copy of the tenancy agreement. The court will charge you an issue fee of £175.00 and you will in due course receive a hearing date (no earlier than 4 weeks no later than 10). Prior to the hearing you will need to file a certificate of service at court (N215) confirming when/how your s.8 notice was served, you should also file an updated rent statement. At the hearing you will need to give evidence on oath confirming the date of the tenancy, date your s.8 notice was served, the level of arrears at the date yoour s.8 notice was served and level of arrears at the date of the hearing. You should confirm that you are seeking an order for possession and fixed costs. Provided you have got your paperwork in order and there is no counterclaim or request for an adjournment you should get your order. Common mistakes are as follows; Landlord fails to serve a s.48 notice (an address for the tenant to serve notices) no rent is due until you do This is in the AST my name and address Landlord fails to protect rent deposit, possible counterclaim for 3 times deposit and invalid s.21 notice The deposit is in a DPS account Landlord fails to undertake repairs, possible counterclaim No repairs have been asked for Landlord fails to complete paperwork properly possible strike out Just looked through the AST and the start and finish date is 10/01/2011 to 10/01/2012 There is no provision within the tenancy agreement to bring a claim under grounds 8/10/11 during the fixed term claim will fail Grounds 8, 10 and 11 are in the AST Hope the above helps What will the mistake in the AST mean for me? Should of read 10/01/2012 to 10/01/2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 You might want to try/ask landlorda..... Only kidding, please excuse my sense of humour. I presume that you re used the original agreement and forgot to change the dates if that is the case then the equitable remedy of rectification would apply. There was an agreement between you and your tenant for a 12 month tenancy, there was an error in drafting the document and the written agreement does not reflect what you agreed. Your tenant would no doubt confirm that he has an agreement with you that continues to 2013. The issue would not effect a claim brought under grounds 8,10,11 in any event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antnkel Posted August 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Glad about that, think I'll do this myself. Thanks LAW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Good for you. If you want you can email me a copy of your claim form and particulars of claim and I will give it the once over before you issue it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antnkel Posted August 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Thanks will do, I'm hoping they get in contact before I start though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antnkel Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Thanks will do, I'm hoping they get in contact before I start though! They did contact me and it's all sorted now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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