adamabdo Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Hi! I have a property let out to a couple. They are out of the 6 month term of the AST - so they are now in what I believe is called a periodic tenancy. They want the security of another 6 month agreement. I'm happy to do this but am not sure what agreement to get them to sign? 1) Would they sign another agreement identical to the one they signed in when they first moved in? 2) Do I need both of the couple to sign or do I need both signatures 3) What is the situation regarding a witness being present? If one of the couple signs, can the other act as a witness. If they both need to be on the agreement what are the rules regarding using a witness? I know these are basic questions but any advice gratefully received! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I can answer 2 and 3. Co tenants must both sign the agreement, witnesses have to be independant to the person signing the document, this refers to any legal document. They cannot be family members or co signees of the same document. 1. is, I suspect more complicated, but providing your tenants agree to the terms in the new contract and it is a legally correct one, I would think that covers all bases. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julles Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Hi 1) Would they sign another agreement identical to the one they signed in when they first moved in? Yes but with the new dates 2) Do I need both of the couple to sign or do I need both signatures yes both tenants have to sign 3) What is the situation regarding a witness being present? If one of the couple signs, can the other act as a witness. If they both need to be on the agreement what are the rules regarding using a witness? You do not need a witness for signing an AST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julles Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Hi sorry posted twice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Would they sign another agreement identical to the one they signed in when they first moved in? Yes, BUT subject to that contract including all of the recommended extra clauses that have been discussed on this and other web sites. Standard, off the shelf contracts, are far to basic and often result in a landlord having difficulty resolving problems. My contracts have X4 pages of extra clauses covering things like rent increases & abandoned goods. Standard contracts should carry a government WEALTH warning. You have been warned.......of course many inexperienced landlords find they just can't be bothered and stick their heads in the sand......don't be one of them ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Not covered above is the guarantor. If you have one already you will need a new deed for a new agreement, although this can depend on the wording of an original deed. This does need to be witnessed. If, as I suspect, there is no g'tor this is an ideal opportunity to negotiate for one, and is recommended. I prefer to have the correct paperwork at the outset of an original tenancy and prefer not to renew but, as you, allow it to run into a periodic. If a T were to ask for a renewal of AST I would charge for my efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 If a T were to ask for a renewal of AST I would charge for my efforts. DEFINITELY NOT... It is not legally permitted for a landlord to charge for his own time spent running his business.......irrespective of wether thats time spent handling administration, cleaning or repairing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 So they don't get one, simples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 So they don't get one, simples. Thats your choice but, quite frankly, I'd do virtually anything to keep hold of some of my top tenants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freefall Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 COR (or anyone!) - who can be used as an 'independent' witness for a guarantor? I guess I'm not supposed to use a friend or member of my family and assume the same goes for them. I'm not using a letting agency. Also, does the guarantor need to sign the document in front of me or could they sign it, scan it and email it back to me with photocopies of their passport/driver's license and utility bills - they don't live nearby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 The 'Deed' needs to be signed in front of an unrelated witness. In an A's office I've seen co workers sign, also friends have been used. Where the G'tor is a distance away I preferred the witness to be a solicitor who would then stamp the document. This would give opportunity for the solicitor the check the i.d. of the G'tor. The witness should write their address. The Deed is a request from the G'tor that you accept them as such, there is no need for you to sign. I require the G'tor to sign onto the AST to demonstrate they have had sight of the situation they are guaranteeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freefall Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Cor, so between what you and Dave A said ("witnesses have to be independant to the person signing the document, this refers to any legal document. They cannot be family members or co signees of the same document."), the witness could be a friend of the guarantor/tenant as long as it'snot a relative? Would it not be possible to get the forms signed and returned by registered post along with the original ID docs (passport/driving license + utlility bill)? This was my first choice. Or would the signature not be valid if I don't see it signed myself? If not, do you know roughly how much a solicitor would charge for this task? Thanks for your info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 If you haven't seen the G'tor how can you be sure the G'tor is the one signing for the responsibility ? In theory you could accept anyone as witness to the G'tors signature if you feel they are trust worthy. I'm perhaps OTT with my suspicion but if the G'tor says they weren't aware, and the witness is of their choosing I feel a claim against them might well fail. The cost of the solicitor, in my mind, is their problem. Their alternative, for me, is to make the journey so that I may oversee. I will add that the twice I attempted to accommodate G'tors some miles away I put in extra effort to satisfy the email of the documents, and again as they had problems downloading. The document layout was corrupted by their printer so no longer looked and read well. Both attempts failed and I let to an all local situation, far simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freefall Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Good point. I guess a solicitor near them could do it if they can't come here. Another thing that confuses me: I understand that once the fixed period has lapsed into a periodic tenancy that they are no longer liable if they give written notice that they no longer wish to remain the guarantor. If the landlord has already informed the guarantor that there is a problem e.g rent arrears, and the guarantor then said they no longer wished to be the guarantor, would he still be liable for any costs he had already been told about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Of course he would be liable if he had already been informed of arrears before the end of initial term. Was that what you meant? If he bails out after and informs you then not you cannot pursue new arrears with guarantor. Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I guess a lot depends on the wording of the deed. But if you have a G'tor that can just resign where's the point in having one at all. I've had G'tors that insist there liability ends at the end of the fixed term, so I've corrected their thoughts. I did have a G'tor that rang to resign and was to follow up in writing. I told him I wouldn't accept their notice of such. I would only accept their departure as G'tor if a suitable replacement could be offered, and that would involve fees. More importantly it was fore warning me of pending issues, a little investigation and I could see I was better to repossess. If a G'tor wants out there is likely to be a good reason for them to feel at risk and they will know things before you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freefall Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Yes, that's what I meant. Or if the guarantor is informed that the tenant is a month in arrears and then bails out, and the tenant continues to get into further arrears, then I guess the guarantor would only be responsible for that first month? In which case I don't know whether it's better to inform them sooner or later. Hopefully, I won't ever need to know! Also, I don't know if it's feasible to keep a guarantor for the full term of the tenancy, including the periodic tenancy. I've seen tenancy agreements stating the guarantor is responsible for the full term of the tenancy incuding any periodic but I don't know if these are valid or not, or if they can still opt out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 My guarantor deed covers for renewals, rent increases, periodic and basically anything the landlord is out of pocket. Though I think it would be good practice to get the guarantor to re-sign on every renewal to be on the safe side if possible. Even the legal people who draw up the doc we use advise that, as a good brief could argue that it was a unfair term and we all know the law is not black or white but who has the best solicitor if its a gray area. We had a few months back what we thought was a straight foreword S8 (rent arrears) hearing but by the time the legal aid solicitor (he was good though) got involved he tied us up with a very week disrepair defence. We sorted it in the end and came to a compromise without it draging out too long. I will think very carefully about going down the s8 route again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Following the theory of the previous 2 posts we would continually need to ask a G'tor if he / she would like to remain as such, with a please. In other words you feel they can change their mind when things are less attractive for them which is the day after they signed really. BTW the AST isn't what ties the G'tor in it's the deed.The T is there for the tenancy not just the fixed term, why would we only want a G'tor for the fixed term ? How would it be reasonable for a G'tor to refuse to sign for a renewal ? T stays we now need to repossess without G'tor security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 A suggestion that is more subtle is to send a letter requesting up to date contact information, address (I assume the one your posting to) telephone / mobile number, signature. Send to T and G'tor perhaps annually. The return of the information demonstrates some and reminds of G'tor status. A failure to return might cause the service of a S21 ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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