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combi boiler


marco_c

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Hello everybody,

I have a terraces house with 2 bedrooms let through a letting agency. On the ground floor there is the kitchen bathroom and living room and upstairs there are 2 bedrooms. The combi-boiler is in the cupboard in one of the bedrooms.

I got a mail from the letting agency because the combi boiled had to be replaced and the quote with their plumber was around 1100 vat included

I decided to ask to another plumber who did a good job a few years ago and I asked him to move the combi boiler from the cupboard in the bedroom upstair to the kitchen downstair

The quote of my plumber was around 1400 + 300 to move the combi boiler to the kitchen

Total amount around 1700

I decided to proceed with "my plumber" because I really wanted to move the combi boiler away from the bedroom

He completed the work and he wrote an email:

The boiler was not moved into the kitchen area as there was not a suitable position for it to go where it would not break regulations. The boiler has been fitted with a control which means it's operated from the living room so the person in that bedroom does not have to be disturbed to put the heating on or off.

I replied saying that he the work agreed was to put the combi boiler in the kitchen,<br style=""> <br style="">

This is his next mail:

the boiler can not go in the kitchen as I stated. There is no available wall to allow it to fit in there that does not break regulations. That's why originally it was put in the cupboard upstairs. It either has to be upstairs or nowhere

mine:

i trusted you because we had a business before

i carried on with the works because we agreed to move the combi boiler

you carried on with the work without keeping me updated

if i knew i would go for the plumber of the letting agency

i hope we will find an agreement

his reply:

I don't understand your reaction. We have not kidded you and been very fair. The regulations state the boiler can not go in any position where it is close to a water outlet. The sink in your kitchen is too close to the only available wall.

I went out of my way to make time and disrupt other jobs as your tenants had no heating or hot water and the job was urgent.

If you had gone with the letting agents plumber and they had put it in the kitchen position then it would have been incorrect and not certificate would have been issued.

I don't know what else to say to you on the matter as I can not put it in the kitchen and break building regulations.

The only other option is for me to remove all the works carried out and you can let the letting agents plumber fit a new one in the kitchen

My last mail

i am trying to fix everything so we will both be happy

i believe we can move the sink so we can have more space to fix the combi-boiler in the kitchen as i agreed in the first place so we will not break any regulation

it seems fair

please let me know

any advice?

Many thanks

marco

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If you clearly gave instructions for the boiler to be fitted in the kitchen and it couldnt be fitted for what ever reason he should have informed you before fitting elsewhere. You are out of pocket due to him not following instructions or keeping you informed and in my view legally liable for your out of pocket expenses.

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hello Grampa,

thanks for your reply

yes i know what you mean

i have enclosed the chat we had in a few mails to give the idea regarding what we agreed<br style=""> <br style="">

Unfortunately he left the combi-boiler in the same place even if I asked to move it

Here the mails…

1 plumber:

Your quote is attached.

We have quoted you for a Potterton Gold boiler, it is a good 'middle of the road' boiler.

Also none of the radiators have thermostatic valves fitted which are now required on all heating systems and there is also no room thermostat which again is now required on all systems. As we have to register the boiler with the local council and the gas safe register there is no way around not doing this.

With regards to moving the boiler to the kitchen I have included an additional cost in the quote for you, although i don’t see much benefit in this as where the boiler is currently located is not a hindrance to the tenants

2 me:

please proceed with the Potterton Gold 24HE , thermostatic valves, certificate and to move the boiler to the kitchen area

if i got it right it should be 14xx+3xx= 17xx

3 me:

Hello,

i hope you are well

have you already started the work in the property in xxxxxxxx?

Please keep me updated

Many thanks

4 plumber:

The job is starting tomorrow and will be finished Tuesday evening. Have spike with the tenants and this is ok.

I will keep you updated on how it goes.

Kind regards

any advice?

many thanks :)

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I would chase the plumber for the differance then. Write a "letter before action" by recorded delivery, make it simple requesting the differance within 14 days. If you dont get it do a money claim online which is very easy.

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I take a slightly different view on this.

The plumber couldn't fit the boiler in the kitchen because there was nowhere for it to go without breaking building regs. Your plumber can't change that fact so he acted in what he thought was the best way.

He should have kept you informed or he should have sought your approval before proceeding but the facts remain he did the best job given the property layout, he acted in your tenants best interests and he did it within his stated budget.

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But that doesn't make sense. If you asked for a radiator to fitted to a certain wall and the plumber fitted it on a different wall without telling because "he" thought it would be better without telling you, you would be up in arms.

This issue is down to communication and the plumber took it on himself not to, and is therefore at fault.

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Well I can at least comment on this from solid experience......... :rolleyes:

The "Plumber" should have informed you, the customer, that fitting in the kitchen was not possible due to Gasafe installation requirements so what do you want to do Mr. Customer?

Provided you gave clear written or verbal instructions on your requirements then the Plumber is at fault for carrying on with the work and failing to make a simple phone call to you outlining the problem.

Mel.

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If you asked for a radiator to fitted to a certain wall and the plumber fitted it on a different wall without telling because "he" thought it would be better without telling you, you would be up in arms.

Thats not an accurate analogy in my view.

An alternative radiator position is unlikely to breach building regs, is unlikely to carry the same urgency as a rental property without heating and would not have similar location constraints as a boiler that doesn't actually fit in its preferred position.

This issue is down to communication and the plumber took it on himself not to, and is therefore at fault.

I agree the plumber should have sought approval but thats not the issue......the issue is one of compensation. It really boils down to the contract between the parties.

please proceed with the Potterton Gold 24HE , thermostatic valves, certificate and to move the boiler to the kitchen area

if i got it right it should be 14xx+3xx= 17xx

The plumber quoted £1400 to fit a new boiler + £300 to move it. The prices were acceptable to the OP and as the boiler wasn't moved there is now just the £1400 to pay. My view is that the OP did not make the contract CONDITIONAL on the boiler being moved. The two parts of the quotation were separate .....in my view.

My advice is to the OP is to put it down to experience and pay up. For the future, make sure you learn by:

1. Either be there in person to supervise or have a project manager who can act for you. OR

2. Make more effort in YOUR communications with your builders than by just sending a one sentance reply.

Its not good enough to just think that you and your builder have the same understanding. Clearly you expected the boiler move to be part of the new boiler supply. Your builder, on the other hand, saw the supply and fit of a boiler and its change of location as separate parts. His price to you was separate and your reply to him retained the separate parts.

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Many thanks for your replies

Yes I agree

There was a lack of communication from the plumber because he didn’t say that moving the combi boiler was not possible

But he stated: The regulations state the boiler can not go in any position where it is close to a water outlet. The sink in your kitchen is too close to the only available wall.

I asked:

“i believe we can move the sink so we can have more space to fix the combi-boiler in the kitchen as i agreed in the first place so we will not break any regulation

it seems fair

please let me know”

Do you think I got ant reply? Obviously not

There must be mutual respect between customer and plumber in my humble opinion

Mistakes can happen but do we deserve all this?

Honestly I don’t know what else I can write to him to fix all this mess

Many thanks

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I don't expect you (or others) to agree with me. I'm just expressing my point of view on the situation.

I asked:

“i believe we can move the sink so we can have more space to fix the combi-boiler in the kitchen as i agreed in the first place so we will not break any regulation

it seems fair

please let me know”

Do you think I got ant reply? Obviously not

Why obviously ?

Are you certain that he received your message ?

Are you sure moving a sink was part of the original price or that the price included replacing kitchen worksurfaces?

There must be mutual respect between customer and plumber in my humble opinion

I don't see an disrespect from either party.

Mistakes can happen but do we deserve all this?

In ths situation you deserve what you get.

Honestly I don’t know what else I can write to him to fix all this mess

I don't think HE is going to fix anything. He supplied and fitted a boiler for £1400 and he doesn't see a mess. He sees a job well done and expects payment for it. I'd certainly be happy to fight in court if I were him.

It seems that you are having trouble accepting that the contract you made didn't cover your expectations. Read the previous posts again and try and understand.......ultimately it might save you some money if it goes to court.

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The different pricing of the two contractors is irrelevant.

If one is willing to do a job cheaper there is no assumption that another should.

The jobs may well be to a different standard but there is no way for comparison as only one gets to do the job. Going into the Mercedes dealership and expecting a similar sized car for Kia prices isn't realistic.

The price is stated you take your choice.

The plumber was contracted to do a specific job. If there were any doubt communication should have been made by the plumber. In fact I fail to understand how he starts the job without a survey to ascertain the quotation. If he did survey the problem should have been discussed.

Who the hell does he think he is to site controls as he sees fit in someone else's property, he's got a bloody nerve if you ask me.

Give him the choice to restore the property to it's pre work state he had no right to to decide as he did.

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Marco,

I too have been miffed when a contractor didn't carry out an installation as I had expected.

Are you some distance away from your property? I agree with all previous that the plumber should have contacted you, but in my experience if you're not available to discuss options on site within an hour or so then it's quite likely a contractor will resort to his own initiative and know-how. He quoted for the option he took and if you accept the result then that is what he's owed.

If on the other hand you're dead set on having the boiler in the kitchen, have you asked what regs. (chapter & verse) prevented your plumber from doing this? Not all plumbers know every reg. exactly. If he's right and it can't be done, bite the bullet - if not you have something on which to re-negotiate if you really want to. Incidentally, was the option of moving the sink included in the brief?

I've seen certificated boilers close to sinks. As far as I'm aware regs. cover external flu site restrictions and distance of electrics from sinks/ taps. Out of interest can anyone knowledgable tell us what the applicable reg. limitations would actually be in this case?

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Guest caravanj

Marco,

I too have been miffed when a contractor didn't carry out an installation as I had expected.

Are you some distance away from your property? I agree with all previous that the plumber should have contacted you, but in my experience if you're not available to discuss options on site within an hour or so then it's quite likely a contractor will resort to his own initiative and know-how. He quoted for the option he took and if you accept the result then that is what he's owed.

If on the other hand you're dead set on having the boiler in the kitchen, have you asked what regs. (chapter & verse) prevented your plumber from doing this? Not all plumbers know every reg. exactly. If he's right and it can't be done, bite the bullet - if not you have something on which to re-negotiate if you really want to. Incidentally, was the option of moving the sink included in the brief?

I've seen certificated boilers close to sinks. As far as I'm aware regs. cover external flu site restrictions and distance of electrics from sinks/ taps. Out of interest can anyone knowledgable tell us what the applicable reg. limitations would actually be in this case?

Yes the position of the boiler is more likely to be governed by the 17th Edition Electrical Regulations & Part P of the building regs which cover electrical installations.

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I've seen certificated boilers close to sinks. As far as I'm aware regs. cover external flu site restrictions and distance of electrics from sinks/ taps. Out of interest can anyone knowledgable tell us what the applicable reg. limitations would actually be in this case?

All heating engineers carry the "Blue Book" which is the Bible of gas regulations for the siting of any boiler regarding flues, boiler positioning etc. etc. Most Gas Installers know these regs off by heart by experience and training.

This particular case in question is really down to a breakdown in communication between the installer and the customer. A more experienced installer would not have carried on without the express permission of the customer.

The installer cannot fit the boiler in the kitchen until the sink unit has been moved and repositioned into place for the simple reason the customer may decide after boiler fitment that they won't move the sink unit after all and as the Installer is responsible any liability would fall back onto him especially if a Gasafe check is carried out as all gas installers have their installations checked out at some point in time to stay licensed.

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Guest caravanj

The position of the boiler v sink is governed by the 17th Edition electrical regs. Gas fitters have to abide by both gas regs & electrical regs. It's the risk of an electric shock between the boiler body & the sink that's the issue here.

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If the sink and boiler has equipotential bonding there's no possibility of a voltage difference between them to cause shock.

Without reading up the 17th Edition Regs I can't be sure but would say it's down to the presence of electrical equipment within 300mm of the sink.

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"Kitchen sinks are not required to have electrical bonding any longer."

What alternative arrangements would you suggest ?

My comments were a statement of fact. Having had a very expensive kitchen fitted recently without the sink earth bonded I asked the supplier & the installers that very question.

I think the only arrangements possible are those contained in the regulations ie boilers HAVE to be a certain distance from sinks.

If both were bonded and sited very close together its possible that a few years later the owner, even a new owner, may decide on having anew sink. The installers knowing bonding was not required wouldn't bond it and hey presto......there is a BIG problem.

Regulations are there for a reason. Its best to comply with them.

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Although I put myself through the 17th Edition a couple of years ago I had to go back to the book.

I was considering going back into contracting, but there's another industry where the controls put to much squeeze on the small trader.

Sure enough equipotential bonding is now only required in rooms containing a bath or shower.

It did go OTT in previous years and in some cases could even caused a more dangerous situation. My preference is still to bond across large electrical appliances in a kitchen and of course the sink.

Back in the 80's I did much work in commercial kitchens and saw examples of belts (caused discomfort but with potential for worse) from microwaves, probably while in contact with a bain marie or other microwave.

So I sit corrected.

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When my house was partly rewired and recertified this year I noticed the electrician had removed some previous cross bonding.

I heard that if a metal sink was bonded (i.e. earthed) as they used to be, a small child sitting on one could get a fatal shock if they put a finger in a live kettle base etc. Hence sinks no longer bonded.

The only reg. I am aware of is the 300mm from sink to 13amp socket - isn't this to minimise risk of splashing the socket?

What about electric water heaters with spout over basin? Aren't electrics hard wired similar to boiler.

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Removing cross bonding from a sink won't reduce the potential for a shock from a live source, not unless it's insulated and that 'aint real world. In practice it can still be earthed via a water feed.

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