Irina Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Good afternoon. In my previous posts I mentioned that we have to evict non-paying T. We have served him Section 21 Notice, but it looks like going Section 8 route will be 1,5 month faster. I know the dangers but T is employed with a good salary, so is not eligible to legal aid (and he won't pay for private solicitor, knowing him), not vulnerable in any way (able-bodied, no children, employed full time). Also, he's not very bright and quite lazy. So, there's a hope that he will not file a defence and may even not turn up for court hearing. He pays (not) rent weekly. I need to calculate when his 8 weeks are up and am not quite sure how to do it. - First, do I count his arrears every day or rather per week? The thing is he paid different sums of money each week so it'll not be exactly a full number of weeks. He is supposed to pay each Friday but his 8 weeks arrears fall for Tuesday. Do we still have to count the full week? If we do and his 8 weeks are up on Friday, can we send section 8 on Saturday and will it mean that 3 days from then will be on Wednesday or Saturday is not counted ( I let Sunday out )? If it's Tuesday, and we'll send the notice on Wed, can we submit documents to the court on Monday? - Second, the rent is £425 per month. My OH calculated it as £98 per week, by 425x12 (months) / 52 (weeks in the year). Not sure if it's the right formula. Or should we rather £425/4,5 (weeks in a month)? When we present the money in- money out- balance table, should we calculate everything, based on daily rent cost, i.e. £425x12 (months)/365(days per year) or weekly? Sorry, that I sound like a dummy. But I'm very worried that our case will be thrown out on technicality and want to get all our dates exactly right. Also, we plan to send the last warning letter. Shall we do it together with Section 8, in separate letters or on a different day? I swear, never again will we allow T to pay weekly rent. Too much hasstle. We bended backwards before this T because he didn't have any savings and was paid weekly, so, to accommodate his need, we agreed that he pays every week form his wages. Thank you for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Irina - Just clear this bit up first - on the tenancy agreement does it say the rent is due monthly or weekly? You say he has paid weekly but what did he sign up to? Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irina Posted July 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Irina - Just clear this bit up first - on the tenancy agreement does it say the rent is due monthly or weekly? You say he has paid weekly but what did he sign up to? Mortitia Signed up for weekly rent of 98£. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 You count his arrears by the week - so if he moved in on a Monday his week ended on a Sunday. Section 8 needs 2 months so be be safe I would count 9 weeks arrears. Once you send in the documents and pay the court fee you have to wait and see if he goes in 14 days if not you then have to apply for a court hearing and that could take 3-6 weeks or longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 For future ref if a tenant wants to pay weekly still set the contract up pcm just take the payments in installments throughout the month. <br>Also another downside of setting up a tenancy weekly is it can be more difficult to get the dates correct on any s21 which means a lot more room for error and it then getting struck out.<br><br>Going back to your questions you are over complicating working out the correct arrears.All you need is a basic spreadsheet. <br> <br><br> If you have records of dates of when payments were made and enter it all on a spreadsheet it become very straight forward to work out when 2 months/8week are owing for ground 8.<br><br><br>The way I serve a section 8 is to post 2 copies to each named adult on the tenancy one by recorded and 1 by proof of postage. As well as the completed s8 notice there should be the full wording of the grounds being used (sometimes this is already in the s8 notice) and a schedule (above) showing the arrears.<br> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Sorry Grampa I'm not understanding most of that and I'm sure Irina won't either. What are the hyroglyphs/shortforms meaning please? Just a note to all - I have never used a spreadsheet in my life. Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 It's possible Grampa has copy and pasted his text, and the confusing elements are the programme instructions copied over. It reads ok if you ignore them. My way to track the rental account of each T is by spreadsheet (xls) Aside from T's names and property it shows amount of deposit held at DPS, ref ID and repayment ID. It shows Avg Rent pcm, below Date ---- Rent Due (example for August) -------- ----------- Amount ----- Balance Date ---- Payment Method (example Bank Auto Remittance) --- Amount ---- Balance I find tracking the rental accounts to be easy enough this way. I send a statement twice a year to T's which gives them chance to raise query if I make error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I cut and pasted some text and a spreadsheet and it went a bit cockeyed. A spreadsheet will save time because it will do the calculations for you but you could just type one out on the lines of: PAYMENT RECORD FOR MR XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX TENANCY ADDRESS XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX TENANCY START DATE XXXXXXXXXX RENT PER WEEK £100 PAYABLE ON FRIDAY EACH WEEK (the above should be the same as in on the contract) DATE ITEM IN OUT BAL 01.04.11 CASH PAYMENT 100.00 100.00 01.04.11 RENT DUE 100.00 0.00 08.04.11 CASH PAYMENT 75.00 75.00 08.04.11 RENT DUE 100.00 -25.00 10.04.11 CASH PAYMENT 25.00 0.00 Doing it in this format and in the correct dated order will clearly show when payments have been made and the total of rent owing Edit: I have just looked at the above after posting and it has bunched up the list of payments. So spread it out a bit to make it clearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irina Posted July 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Thank you for your replies, much appreciated. Yes, I am worried too much. But I want to get it right first time, not only for ourselves, but also because the T moved in with no intention to pay, and we dont want to give him any extra time to stay on the top of what we have to give by the law. It's already too generous but not our choice. We have two rental properties, to put it more modestly, two little studio flats. It's unbelievable how many questions nd problems arise. For example, an agent has found a T for the second flat. At the last moment she informed us that on the top of 50% of the first month, we are paying £95 for the Tenancy Agreement. We had to accept it. Is it normal to charge that much for Agreeement? Before we used one, bought for £10 in WH Smith, and found T ourselves. Just didn't want to sound a cheapscate in front of her and I reazlie that it has to be worth its while for her to make an effort. Also, she said she would protect a deposit and when I wanted to take it and protect it myself, she was ( or played) very offended that we didn't trust her. She does everything properly and protects it with DPS (so do we). In a moment of weakness I agreed that she goes ahead and protects it herself (and sends us repayment ID). Only later did I understand why it was so important for her to do it herself. She mentioned that as she would protect a deposit, she would do a check-ou herself, too. What a good value for money, I thought. Later I understood what it was about. When she gave us the bill, she sneaked a £75 check-out fee (we asked for a let only service). It has been given to us in a sealed envelope, so we found it all out only when we came home. Though my husband would rather pay, I still called her and said that we were not interested. Again, she was upset and quite abrupt. Richlist, if you're reading this, that's the reason I don't like using agents - they can not be trusted 100% and you have to check that everything is done properly (as is a common knowledge). We only used her because we struggled to find a T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Richlist, if you're reading this, that's the reason I don't like using agents - they can not be trusted 100% and you have to check that everything is done properly (as is a common knowledge). We only used her because we struggled to find a T. So, on your sample of ONE you have determined that they (agents) cannot be trusted ! Whilst I understand your dissatisfaction with this particular agent it doesn't mean that all agents are the same. If you cannot find a suitable agent via recommendation then a few simple checks will usually weed out the unsuitable and reduce the risk of bad experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irina Posted July 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Richlist, if you're reading this, that's the reason I don't like using agents - they can not be trusted 100% and you have to check that everything is done properly (as is a common knowledge). We only used her because we struggled to find a T So, on your sample of ONE you have determined that they (agents) cannot be trusted !Whilst I understand your dissatisfaction with this particular agent it doesn't mean that all agents are the same. If you cannot find a suitable agent via recommendation then a few simple checks will usually weed out the unsuitable and reduce the risk of bad experiences. No, it's not our only experience. Also, I wouldn't classify my example as a bad experience. I defined it as an agent that can't be trusted 100%, which is the case with every single agent that we or our frinds contacted (the same goes about banks - you have to be vigilant and check all hidden charges, terms and conditions, regardless of what you're told. I wouldn't call banks "bad" because of that. It's just workers, desperate to sell their services and "forgetting" to mention certain charges or penalties). "A few simple checks" won't uncover such little occassions. Hence, my decision. Again, thank you for your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Irina - next time ask agent for 'tenant find only' get a fixed price +VAT and supply your own agreement - tell agent that at the start and everyone knows where they stand. To avoid looking a cheapskate tell agent your agreement in superior to theirs and download one from this site. My alternative to a spreadsheet in a 'week to view' diary, A5 size in which I keep the free pages at the back 1 for each property details such as tenant names, contact details and deposit iD details and the 'accounts bit' for keeping payment records. I also keep the utilities companies readings, meter numbers and gas certificates on the allotted page so they are always to hand. In the main diary part I can keep any dates of end of tenancies and details of conversations with tenants on the relevant day. I keep this book with me all the time and have previous years to hand in my study which has proved invaluable. Small, convenient, does not require electricity and won't crash. Next Tues I am in court for a S8 possession hearing. My solicitor has warned me to expect tenant to get a further 14- 21 days occupation because he 'is depressed' so Irina be prepared for similar. Mortitia ' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Irina - next time ask agent for 'tenant find only' get a fixed price +VAT and supply your own agreement - tell agent that at the start and everyone knows where they stand. To avoid looking a cheapskate tell agent your agreement in superior to theirs and download one from this site. My alternative to a spreadsheet in a 'week to view' diary, A5 size in which I keep the free pages at the back 1 for each property details such as tenant names, contact details and deposit iD details and the 'accounts bit' for keeping payment records. I also keep the utilities companies readings, meter numbers and gas certificates on the allotted page so they are always to hand. In the main diary part I can keep any dates of end of tenancies and details of conversations with tenants on the relevant day. I keep this book with me all the time and have previous years to hand in my study which has proved invaluable. Small, convenient, does not require electricity and won't crash. Next Tues I am in court for a S8 possession hearing. My solicitor has warned me to expect tenant to get a further 14- 21 days occupation because he 'is depressed' so Irina be prepared for similar. Mortitia ' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Next Tues I am in court for a S8 possession hearing. My solicitor has warned me to expect tenant to get a further 14- 21 days occupation because he 'is depressed' so Irina be prepared for similar. Mortitia ' Get your Solicitor to say to his Lordship that your tenant may be depressed but your suicidal! What a joke and a palaver eh! It is time this unlevel playing field that Landlord's and Tenant's play on was levelled off. Anybody see Homes from Hell this week on the telly? Did you see the Scumbags who had taken over that couples property renovation and the squatters had the audacity to put up a warning poster on the front door stating that the law was on their side!! The useless police of course refused to do anything as they regarded it as a civil matter completely ignoring the fact that the squatters had forced an illegal entry at some time to gain possession. £6000 it cost to get these Scumbags out. Which reminds me I am still waiting for a reply from Grant Shapps, Housing Minister re- my letter about illegal squatting of a persons private property and what did he intend to do about it as he promised to do so 1 year ago when he said it was his No.1 priority to get squatting laws changed. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Next Tues I am in court for a S8 possession hearing. My solicitor has warned me to expect tenant to get a further 14- 21 days occupation because he 'is depressed' so Irina be prepared for similar. Mortitia Mortitia I hope your solicitor will be prepared and argue against a longer possession date. There are court cases on file where the judge has stated that a order to postpone longer than 14 days should only be made “on extremely rare occasion and when exceptional circumstances exist” Also the judge in Bayatti v Johnson 2004 stated: "but once I am satisfied, and indeed I am satisfied, that it is right to make an order for possession, my powers are governed by section 89 of the Housing Act 1980.Under those provisions I can suspend a writ of possession for 14 days without cause and up to six weeks maximum if it will cause undue hardship. I do not see that Mr Johnson will suffer any undue hardship by the delay. He will suffer the hardship whatever day he is removed from the property because he says he has nowhere to go. That is not a factor which enables the court, in my judgment, to suspend the power exceptionally for up to six weeks, as otherwise everybody who was faced with a possession order would make the same submission.” There are other court cases as well that maybe helpful which I dont have to hand but maybe LAW does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Mel and Grampa thanks for those supportive replies. I am not using solicitor at court but used him for issuing S8 and S21 to make sure there were no slip ups. Solicitor has already briefed me on what to say/ put in my 'witness statement' and given the quotes Grampa mentions to enable me to get immediate possession. Tenant, a single self employed gent, assured me he would be 'long gone' by the time the court date came up. Now HB are paying most of his rent which is disgraceful since he is living solo in a 2 bed family house with gardens and refusing to budge. I never do HB tenants and he seems to think he can make me change my mind - stupid man. He has even complained to the local authority that their slowness in paying HB has turned me against him. Priceless!! He has been a tenant for 2 years but this last year things have gone wrong big time for him so instead of downsizing he decides to dig in. To make matters worse the true rent is now £80.00 pcm more than in his agreement and HB leaves a shortfall of £60 pcm. So altogether I am £140 pcm out of pocket - never mind his arrears. I shall report fully after the case. Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 s.89 was implemented to curtail judges common law powers and is quite effective if you know how to use it. In order to go beyond 14 days there must be exceptional hardship. There is no definition of exceptional hardship but it is clear that it must go beyond just being made homeless. Unless it is serious clinical depression, the argument should not stand, if it is serious then that actually helps you as he is clearly vulnerable and; Where a person is homeless or threatened with homelessness within 28 days then the local authority have a duty to rehouse if that applicant is priority homeless, s.189 © Housing Act 1996 defines who is vulnerable and priority (which includes mental health issues). A duty to a homeless priority applicant cannot be postponed or deferred therefore the ealier the date for possession the earlier the tenant can be rehoused. Even if the tenant is found to be intentionally homeless the local authority have a duty to provide accommodation for a minimum of 28 days and provide advice and assistance to help them secure accommodation. On top of this the courts are taking up to 8 weeks to execute warrants so the tenant is likely to be there beyond 14 days in any event. Finally, if you are doing this yourself be aware that most courts have duty advisors whose sole aim is to prevent or delay your order for possession, the service is free to tenants. So make sure your paperwork is in order and you go prepared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Thanks LAW for that. Have printed notes of case etc to add to my file. Strangely my solicitor could not find the right references but now your have - I am very grateful. As far as I am aware tenant currently does not have as serious a mental health problem as you describe. His HB officer was amazed to hear that he was still at the address when I spoke with him last week. LA have not offered him accommodation because he is not entitled to it. That is grim news regarding the bailiff but I do have a contact who may speed that up for me should it go the whole 9 yards. Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettbutcher Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I agree with Grampa re the rent being monthly.. Some more stuff re dates. Just be careful when working out the balances between dates. If the rent is monthy, the daily rent in February (28 days) is more expensive than the daily rent in March ((31 days) . The formula our systems use is to Multiply the monthly rent by 12 divided by the number of days in that year. 365 or 366 in the leap year. This gives the rent on any day in a particular month. Excel can do date calculations too. Just make sure the cells are set to the type of Date. You can subtract them, get no of days etc. Work out balances between dates using the daily rent and the no of days. Finally with dates.. and I know this is obvious but a 6 month tenancy agreement starting on the 4th January terminates at midnight on the 3rd July. Unless it explicitly states a mid-day or other start time in the tenancy agreement. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 To clarify- a tenancy period is the period that rent payments are made for. Not wishing to confuse, but what can confuse is many will use the start of the tenancy as the 1st day of a tenancy and so it will run. Then there are those that will detail a payment date, and this may then be viewed as the 1st day of a tenancy period. The 1st example has little against it apart from if there is some variation of payment date, and this is also a problem with the 2nd example. A judge will need to consider if the start of tenancy or the payment date is the 1st date of a tenancy period, and of course may be confused by a change of payment date or a possible later AST that doesn't run consecutive. This is a good reason for the saving clause on a notice of repossession, so Mr Judge can use the POWER of his discretion. To overcome this my AST's state that payments made on the 20th are for a period commencing the 1st of the month following, and clarifies that tenancy periods run from the 1st of a month till the last day of that month. That is the period a payment is for. To overcome the issue of 'daily rents' my statements will detail varying amounts due on the 20th, dependant on the number of days in the following month. SO's are set up to pay average monthly rent so as not to confuse the bank. The balance will rise and fall a little through the year but after 12 months should balance nicely. Any discrepancy of a few pence can be calculated into the next years SO. I hope that's clear enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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