DPS dispute query

[fredthelandlord]

For a little backgraound I use a tennant-find service from an agent and use their contract, I manage the property myself and do my own photographic inventory and check in/out. The rent was £500/m the deposit is £750 and is with the DPS.

I have just had a tennant move out of a flat (all paid up to date and he's bought somewhere), he has not done a very thorough job of cleaning the place up, its OK but not spotless as when they moved in, windows need proper cleaning, dust on surfaces, lampshades, lawn needs mowing, garden needs a little weeding etc. Individually these are small items and some may argue I should be grateful they have not left it worse.

However I prepare my flat meticulously for tennant ie everything (and I mean everything) is clean. I am not disputing the condition of anything just the final cleanliness left by the tennant. I offered the tenant the opurtunity to do it themselves but he is now too busy! I suggested a figure of £150 be deducted from the deposit but he was only prepared to stretch to £80. As I suspect it will be hassle I offered to make it £100 but they still wouldn't budge from their £80. Now maybe I am just pedantic but altogether it will easily take me about a day to do. Now the question is if I want to dispute this do I need to get a proffesional cleaning firm to quote and produce that estimate to the ADR? Or can I set a figure I consider is reasonable for me to do it? I am employed so would probably need to take a day off work to do it as well as fuel to get to the property, which is an hour away each way. Naturally I have taken plenty of photos but photos are'nt always brilliant at capturing a bit of muck here or there.

Thank you in advance as ever!

[Grampa]

Take the 80 quid it is more hassel that it is worth to go down the dispute route.

It may be best for your next tenancy to pay the fee for the insurance based scheme you are then in control of the funds and if the situation was the same you could have deducted £100/£150 and sent the balance as full and final settlement.

Yes they could still enter a dispute but the onus would be on them and a lot of tenants wont bother.

[Carryon Regardless]

A T offers £80, that's nice.

[Richlist]

Everyone's standards are different. I've had properties handed back to me at both ends of the spectrum from spotless to appalling. What I've learnt over the years is that everyone is different. Its not always a case of the outgoing tenant being lazy or couldn't be bothered to clean......its just that its their standard of cleanliness.

A landlord can be as pedantic as he/she likes and have the highest standard of cleanliness but it doesn't mean you have a right to impose that on your tenant. You can go the extra mile and provide absolutely spotless rental properties......it doesn't follow that your tenant can be expected to hand it back to you in the same condition. What the tenant is required to do is hand it back in a STANDARD clean & tidy condition that may not necessarily be up to your standard.

Did you explain to the outgoing tenant specifically what was required of them ?

Did you visit a few days before the end of the tenancy and advise them what might need to be addressed ?

Or, did you just expect everything to be up to your 'meticulous' standard ?

[fredthelandlord]

Hi thank you for the replies, yes ulitimately I suspect I will probably just accept the £80 and move on, it is written specifically about the garden maintainance and the windows and yes I explained specifically that it was spotless when they moved in and that's how I expected it back. I also reiterated this about a month ago when he fisrt gave notice and I visited the preoperty. There are officially 8 days left on the tenancy so yes plenty of time. As he's bought somewhere else he actually moved out a few weeks ago so he's had loads of time to clean, call me and then finish off if needs be.

[Richlist]

and yes I explained specifically that it was spotless when they moved in and that's how I expected it back.

But I think that you are missing the main point :- you don't have a right to impose your 'meticulous' standards of spotlessness on your outgoing tenant.

Lets face it, the tenant has bought his own property now and that's where his focus & efforts are going to be directed. He'll have no interest in coming back to polish yours to a shine that suits your standards.

Move on.

Good luck.

[fredthelandlord]

Hmm fair enough, but if the outside of the windows have not been cleaned (at all) the lawn mown maybe a month ago if at all this year, the garden never touched that's not my 'meticulous' standards, that's standard stuff.

[Grampa]

...it doesn't follow that your tenant can be expected to hand it back to you in the same condition. What the tenant is required to do is hand it back in a STANDARD clean & tidy condition that may not necessarily be up to your standard.

I disagree with the above. The tenant is required to leave the property in the same condition as the inventory less normal wear and tear

[Melboy]

Take the £80 and move on. In the big picture of the rental business this minor cleaning/grass cutting problem is but a flea bite on an elephants foot.

[Richlist]

I disagree with the above. The tenant is required to leave the property in the same condition as the inventory less normal wear and tear.

Yes I agree BUT, as we all know....

1. Inventory standards vary widely.

2. The degree of cleanliness is subjective.

Not all inventories would show that the windows have been cleaned, the grass cut and the garden manicured....the day before the tenancy began.

Some landlords do try to impose unrealistic standards on their tenants.

Take the £80 and move on. In the big picture of the rental business this minor cleaning/grass cutting problem is but a flea bite on an elephants foot.

Agree 100%

[fredthelandlord]

I disagree with the above. The tenant is required to leave the property in the same condition as the inventory less normal wear and tear.

Yes I agree BUT, as we all know....

1. Inventory standards vary widely.

2. The degree of cleanliness is subjective.

Not all inventories would show that the windows have been cleaned, the grass cut and the garden manicured....the day before the tenancy began.

Some landlords do try to impose unrealistic standards on their tenants.

Take the £80 and move on. In the big picture of the rental business this minor cleaning/grass cutting problem is but a flea bite on an elephants foot.

Agree 100%

Mine does, there are colour photographs in the inventory to prove it too.

[Grampa]

The devil in in detail.

[Richlist]

Mine does, there are colour photographs in the inventory to prove it too.

Then I assume the inventory & photos will show e.g. the grass is short, the garden is tidy and the windows were cleaned . When the property is handed back to you it should be in a similar condition.....how similar it should be is subjective. Only you can decide if its acceptable to you.

Naturally I have taken plenty of photos but photos are'nt always brilliant at capturing a bit of muck here or there.

No and they aren't very good at showing how clean things are either.

I seem to remember a court case where a landlord tried to impose his meticulous standards of cleanliness on an outgoing tenant and lost. The judge was critical of the landlord and said tenants were not expected to adopted such standards and only average cleanliness, subjective as it is, was required.

[Grampa]

The bottom line is how accurate and clear the inventory is and it is not a precise science, All the deposits scheme give tips on doing an inventory.

When we take photos of marks, scuffs burns etc we will lay a ruler against it for the photo.

Levels of cleanliness can vary from person to person and the case Richlist mentions doesn't surprise me but if the cleaning was done professionally prior to the tenancy starting that would have set an independent bench mark.

We have in our contract clarifying that if the property, carpets or oven were professionally cleaned prior the tenancy starting the tenants have to get professionally cleaned when they leave and provide an invoice. They will also be given a copy of the original cleaning invoice at the start of the tenancy which means 9 out of ten times they use the same cleaner which is good.

This isn't fool proof I know but it works for us and has increased the properties been given back in a re-lettable condition hugely and hasn't been questioned by tenants yet.

Gardens are always a tricky one especially if the tenant moves out in a different season to moving in because the appearance is obviously different. But as long as you take plenty of photos and both the landlord and tenant are reasonable (is that possible) it works out ok.

[fredthelandlord]

Thanks to you all for your thoughts, I have accepted the tennants offer of £80 and I do understand and appreciate that there are numerous tennants from hell who may not have paid the rent, wrecked the place or cost thousands to evict or whatever. If I had less on in life atm I would pursue a bigger claim.

I still find it gauling all the same especially as the inventory specifically states and shows the cleanliness of things, poeple can state how it is all in the eye of the beholder and how a judge would dismiss it but the tennant knew how clean it was and I specifically told them how it was to be left when they moved in and they were fully in agreement and understanding.

I think I will have to consider alternatives to the DPS.

[Richlist]

Note:

There is nothing to stop a landlord using the DPS for deposit protection and then using the courts to claim damages.

When there is a dispute/ disagreement, such as in this case, the landlord can use the small claims court. Costs are very reasonable and can be added to the claim. The landlord would, I believe, need to refund the deposit in full through the DPS before making a claim thru the courts. The courts and the DPS arbitration service are run on a totally different basis. It has been suggested that providing the landlord has sufficient evidence then a claim thru the small claims court has more chance of success than thru the DPS.

[Grampa]

I'm not a 100% sure on this but I guess if you held the deposit in your bank account and used one of the pay as you go insurance based schemes you then return the balance of the deposit to the tenant less any deductions. With a full and final settlement offer letter. (so far so good)

The tenant then either accepts it or not. If not they raise a dispute, and as Richlist states you then have the option of opting out of the schemes arbitration procedure and using the courts.

Now the question is, is the onus on the tenant or the landlord to start the court proceedings?? Common sense dictates it is the tenants as they want to recover funds they believe is theirs. If this is the case would a tenant really go to the bother of doing it for say 50 quid? I don't think most would, also most wouldn't want to or don't want to get involved in courts etc.

This way if correct could put the ball back in the landlords court in a similar manner to before the deposit regulations were introduced in 2007. The down side being you have to pay a fee to hold the deposit in your bank account.

[Melboy]

I have accepted the tennants offer of £80 and I do understand and appreciate that there are numerous tennants from hell who may not have paid the rent, wrecked the place or cost thousands to evict or whatever.

It is exactly what you have said here where you have to strike a balance of reasonable expectation at the end of a tenancy.

Most experienced landlords with numerous properties will have experienced what you have said above so therefore will feel that what has happened to you is of little or no consequence in the big picture of property renting and certainly not worth the trouble and effort or financial cost of pursuing.

Regarding the DPS I pay to keep the deposit in the DPS Insurance backed scheme (£22 ) so I have total control of the deposit money at the end of the tenancy.

[Grampa]

Melboy you can get the cost down with other schemes and or if you belong to certain organisations.

TDS https://www.tds.gb.com/landlord-membership-fees.html

Deposit up to £500 = £14.70

Deposit up over £500 = £21.95

My Deposits http://www.mydeposits.co.uk/landlords/pricing

Deposit up to £500 = £18.00

Deposit up over £500 = £24.00

(plus joining fee of £36)

DPS http://www.depositprotection.com/documents/insured-pricing.pdf

Deposit up to £500 = £15.00 (£12 if member of GRL http://www.landlordsguild.com/)

Deposit up over £500 = £22.50 (£20.20 if member of GRL)