Off-topic but would really appreciate any help re: small claims action against bad workmanship.

[chickpea]

In a nutshell - we had an engineered oak floor supplied and fitted just over a year ago.

Supplier provided his own fitters, who we were asked to pay in cash at the time of fitting.

Fitting was badly done - inadequate expansion gap, T-bars glued down to floor at threshold points etc.

Result - a year of hassle, floor peaking, numerous remedial visits, firstly from original fitters then (once they'd parted company with supplier), supplier himself. Floor now effectively knackered - gaps between boards, lifting etc.

Supplier offered to refund supply costs, but denied liability for fitting costs - he says it was a separate arrangement.

Later, changed his mind and said that if he refunded us, we would be in a state of betterment, so then offered us half the cost of the floor (still minus fitting costs).

We took advice from Trading Standards, who suggested we write a letter, recorded delivery, quoting the Sale of Goods and Services Act, stating our issues and what we wanted done - we did this, stating a 14 day written reply deadline...which is up tomorrow and which has been met with silence from the supplier.

Next stage seems to be a letter before action.

Question is, how do we strengthen our case? We have photos of the floor as it is now, with it's bangs and shakes...but not from earlier problems. We have an invoice which states supply only - a/ because at that point, we were 't paying for fitting, and b/ because obviously the fitting was a tax scam.

I've done a bit of delving online and it suggests asking the supplier for relevant documentation - what would that include? Should I ask him for details of all his remedial visits and the reasons for them? Should I be asking him for proof that he/his fitters were actually qualified and competent to fit (since that is what the Supply of Goods and Services states we should be able to expect from tradesmen)?

Does the fact that he has ignored our previous letter carry any weight?

Do we have any hope of this standing up in court? I spoke to a wood floor specialist who said that our supplier didn't have a leg to stand on if the floor was fitted so badly originally. We could get an independent assessor in, but obviously the expansion gap issue has been remedied over the last year, so only the lasting damage is evident.

Any help would be a great help, thanks.

[Grampa]

If it was me I would send a well writen letter before action to both the fitters and supplier and name them both on the court application as defendant and second defendant and the judge can sort out who pays what if you win.

It doesnt cost anything to send the LBA (unless you pay a solicitor to do it) and if it is a well writen one that shows you know what you are doing they may settle on the back of it.. When i send out a LBA i aways attach a print out of the small claims on-line application which i have taken up to the payment bit at the end but not submitted it yet. This shows you are not bluffing. Send 2 copies to each defendant, recorded and post of postage.

Also you would need an independant report for any court hearing.

Remember keep it simple, straight to the point and the basics of the claim on the application as judges dont want to read through reams of "he said," "she said" etc. If they need further info you can give it in court or if you have to reply to any written defence that get sent to you.

Betterment doesnt come in to it in my view because you are only asking for it to be the condition and standard you paid for which was new you are not asking for a better quaity one though I guess they could argue that you had one years worth of use so if it has a life span of 20 years that is 1/20

[Carryon Regardless]

As Grampa include both in the claim, it seems as though the supplier has supplied as requested but the fitter (scam or not) may be viewed as contracted by you and has screwed up.

I would suggest detailing your claim as

a) Value of materials.

b ) Cost of fitting.

c) Other costs such as removal / disposal.

d) Court costs and mileage.

e) Or other as may be decided at the discretion of the Court.

If your claim particular are eg. Cost of floor and fitting with no leeway it's possible a judge might just dismiss the claim as stated. Give the judge the chance to apply his discretion ??

[Grampa]

Also if the fitters were recommended by the supplier the supplier has to take some responsilbity and have a duty of care to the client.

[Mortitia]

Agree with all the above. A small claims action is time consuming, stressful and hair pulling but don't be put off if contractor does not reply to you positively - go for it.

The most recent one I did took 1 year and 1 month to resolve by hearing but it was worth it as I saved £1400 on what I was being asked for in a shoddy work case.

Mortitia

[Melboy]

1st step is to take this contractor to the small claims court. You will win your case no doubt about that.

If no payment is received from a CCJ you take your action to the High Court for judgement. (£60) no other payments from you is required it's a one-off charge. No doubt the Judge will award in your favour and instruct the Sheriff to obtain the money from the supplier.

The High Court Sheriff will then ask the debtor to pay up on the day of the visit what they owe you or they can seize the goods like cars and vans etc. to the value of the debt and auction them off to pay you. A High Court Sheriff is not a Bailiff.......their powers are far greater than a Bailiff or debt collector as they are acting on a High Court Warrant.

Success rate for getting money back to you is extremely high.

The person who supplied you is responsible for the sub- contactors.

[chickpea]

Thanks for all your replies - they are extremely useful and very much appreciated.

The fitters were "sold" to us as being the supplier's team - in fact, of the 2, one was his brother. It only came to light once they'd parted company that they were, in fact, moonlighting from their full-time jobs, to fit for him at weekends. At no time were we offered the choice of using our own fitters, or offered an alternative.

Does the fact that the supplier himself came out and did remedial work to the floor on several occasions boost the arguement that he is also liable for the faulty fitting?

The cost of fitting was £200, the cost of the floor was just over £1100.

I agree with the betterment arguement - we haven't had proper use of the floor in the time it's been down because it's not been fit for purpose for the majority of that time, plus we have said he can come and remove it (leaving us actually worse of than before we contracted him, as we had carpet then and would obviously be left with no floor at all and possible damage to the underfloor heating that's underneath the wood floor).

If the supplier refuses to give us the details of the fitters - we only have first names for them - what then?

I'm very much hoping that, as Grampa suggests, the threat of court action will be enough to pursuade the supplier to cough up...but he is ignoring our contact so far.

[chickpea]

Thanks Melboy.

I rally hope that is the case. Our fear is that it will turn into our word against his, and he will lie to better his case. For example, he is trying to claim that the excessive humidity in the summer was to blame - which may be true to some degree but the first failing was in not fitting the floor properly in order for it to be able to expand in reaction to that. The first prolem we had with the floor was less than 2 weeks after it was laid, in January last year...so clearly NOT a humidity issue, but absolutely down to the T-bar being glued to the floor where it meets the slate hearth infront of the log burner.

It was only several months later, after the floor had peaked so high we couldn't actually cross the floor without hurdling it, that it was trimmed back to it's proper expansion allowance...and when it still didn't settle, they realised that every t-bar across 3 doorways had been virtually cemented to the floor.

They smashed off the t-bars, cut an enormous gap and swore nothing would go wrong again...but then we ended up with crazy-paving gapping between the boards along the full length of the floor. They came back and replaced those boards and lifted and re-laid half the floor, again swearing that nothing could possibly go wrong...except 2 days later, a gap appeared along the length again and the row of boards lifted above the others. It seems clear that the original peaking has warped the floor to such an extent that the whole lot needs replacing - but we refuse to have the supplier or his fitters come back to the property because we have lost all confidence that he is up to the job. (trading standards did say that we have been more than fair in allowing them to attempt to make good and are under no obligation to allow them to repair or replace now).

[Melboy]

So you have done the talking and got nowhere so now go for action. The Courts will decide who is right and who is wrong and award judgement accordingly.

[Grampa]

The small claim route can work. My brother took a well-known insurance company to court for automatically renewing an insurance policy without permission and wouldn’t refund it so he got judgement by default as they didn’t defend or go to court.

As they then didn’t pay my brother then sent the bailiffs round to their main head office up north somewhere to collect and the managers there were a bit upset when the PC'S were about to be taken away and as they didn’t have enough cash on the premises to pay they had to have a whip round. Did make me chuckle

[chickpea]

The small claim route can work. My brother took a well-known insurance company to court for automatically renewing an insurance policy without permission and wouldn’t refund it so he got judgement by default as they didn’t defend or go to court.

As they then didn’t pay my brother then sent the bailiffs round to their main head office up north somewhere to collect and the managers there were a bit upset when the PC'S were about to be taken away and as they didn’t have enough cash on the premises to pay they had to have a whip round. Did make me chuckle

Brilliant!

Wasn't Churchill by any chance, was it?

[chickpea]

So, yesterday - 14 days after the supplier would have received our first letter, giving him 14 days to respond - hubby gets a text from him, saying he hasn't had time to respond.

Husband then phones him because as suggested, we want to name the fitters as defendants but haven't got their full names or contact details.

Supplier refuses to give them, saying he doesn't feel able to give out "personal information". Husband pushes him, but supplier will only give a mobile phone number.

Question - should we request this info formally in the letter before action?

If we can get full names, is it enough to use the flooring showroom as an address for the fitters? As I think I said in a previous post, one of the fitters is the employer's brother so he most have a home address for him at least.

Can we add the cost of recorded delivery to our claim?

[Grampa]

If they start spouting data protection it does apply if needed for any court proceedings (as a rough guide)

If you know the name of the fitter have you googled them or googled the mobile phone No because they may be advertised somewhere and the No listed. Also try http://company-director-check.co.uk/ which gives a registered address if a director.

Also could try http://www.findermonkey.co.uk/ Facebook and twitter can also be a good soure of info.

If you get an address you can do an land registry check to find out if they own it of have a mortgage on it so if you win the case you could put a charge against if they still don’t pay up.

And yes it is best to formally request in writing the fitters details to keep a nice paper trail.

[chickpea]

Thanks Grampa.

We don't have surnames for the fitters, but I assume the brother's is the same as the supplier's.

I'll do some delving...

Supplier is annoying, to say the least - HE supplied the fitters, HE arranged with them to come out (we had no contact with them at all before they fitted), HE says we need to claim fitting costs from them not him, but HE won't give us the means to do that.

Having read the directorate on pre-proceedings, he is going to do himself no favours by not responding to our letters and refusing to give out requested details - maybe given enough rope, he'll hang himself?