chickpea Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 Firstly, a belated Happy New Year to everyone. :-) We've had tenants in our property for the last 9 months, mostly without incident. You may recall they are a Romanian couple - they have been paying the rent in cash to the LA every month, and every month has seen them raise the issue of the house being "too cold" (even in the summer) - one of their more bizarre requests was that we replace all the double glazing because they claim it is "draughty". When the LA reasoned with them that a sealed unit couldn't be draughty, the tenants took it upon themselves to tape up the windows :-O Anyway, following a further suggestion that they actually put the heating on, they gave notice in November. Viewings were given, interest shown by new tenants...but old tenants then told us they had changed their mind and please could they stay? We agreed, only to have them give notice a month later - turns out they had previously agreed a tenancy on a new property which wasn't going to be ready in time for the 1st notice to quit they'd given. Because of when in the rental month they gave notice the 2nd time, they have had to pay beyond the date they would choose to leave (rent due 29th of the month, they want to move out on the 21st). December 29th rent has never been paid. LA's have sent 2 letters - no response. LA phoned and spoke to female tenant , who has informed him that they can't pay and he should just take the rent from their deposit. What's the form here? At risk of sounding like a small child shouting, "not fair!", it doesn't seem right that the tenants can do this without incurring any penalties, while we're left waiting a month plus for the rent - and what happens if there is any damage to the property which needs to be paid for out of the deposit? Seems the tenants have been very deliberate over this - not so much a case of can't pay, as won't pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 This is something that crops up from time to time. To help prevent it make sure you have a guarantor in place to chase and the deposit is more than one months rent. If they are on HB try to get any payments paid directly to the landlord and also try to get a forewarding address after they vacate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 Thanks Grampa. Unfortunately, in this case there is no guarantor (I know, I know!) and I *think* the deposit was only 1 month's rent (but I will check). (I will be asking for both from the new tenants). This being so, is there anything to be done now? - any penalties that can be issued to the outgoing tenants? Will it have any detrimental effect on their credit history, for eg, bearing in mind they have been in the UK for less than 2 years? They have taken on a new property with a private landlord, not via a LA - I'm guessing their references were given by our LA before this issue arose. My other concern is that they have said they wish to leave on the 21st, and the new tenants want to move in on the 23rd - but if the current tenancy doesn't expire until the 29th, what is the risk that they may change their minds and leave on the 29th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 Whatever course of action you may take Tracey please make sure that your actions will at least affect their credit ratings as a minimum punishment. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 Thanks Mel. That is my feeling exactly - why should they leave us out of pocket (or at least inconvenienced), while getting away with it Scott-free? I am more angry because it feels like we've been taken for mugs by people we feel we gave a chance to - they came to us with only the previous positive experience of the LA to recommend them. (again, I know LL's aren't charity cases, but...) The LA is cheesed off but has pretty much shrugged his shoulders and offered us to have the deposit back straight away (it's protected in the scheme that allows the LA to hold it) but I'd like to see some kind of detriment to the tenants, as a deterrent to stop them doing the same in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 Hi Tracey, Additionally to what Mel writes - make sure you tell any referencing agent that enquires that the tenants were not 100% reliable in paying their rent. Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 If they do leave on the 21st, 2 days isnt a lot to put straight the property if there are issues. You could get them to sign a deed of surrender to leave early on the suggested date but if their plans change it is likely they will do what suits them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Hi Mortitia, I am pretty sure their references were given by the LA before the non-payment arose. I have suggested that the LA now goes back to the new LL and informs him of their rent arrears...however, if they then lose their new place, we will potentially be stuck with them in our property while they find another place to live. This is what makes me think this is all very well calculated, not simply a case of genuine can't afford to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 If they do leave on the 21st, 2 days isnt a lot to put straight the property if there are issues. You could get them to sign a deed of surrender to leave early on the suggested date but if their plans change it is likely they will do what suits them. The LA staff member who has done the viewings has said that the current tenants have "kept the place really nice". In fact, that was the female tenants reasoning for us to take this month's rent from the deposit. Of course, I won't believe a word of it until we've seen it for ourselves. Likewise, on speaking to the LA yesterday, expressing our concerns that, ultimately, the tenants will move out when they choose, she said "but they've said they are moving on the 21st". Yes, well they SAID they'd pay the rent on time, and they SAID they were giving notice last time, so...! She has gone away to talk to their legal guys about how best to deal with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Not that I'm sympathetic to the T's but from the T point of view. They have paid a deposit (to the LL they believe) that can be used for unpaid rent, they most often view that the last months rent is therefore paid. Not many T's recognise the risk of cleaning / damage at departure, most state "it's better now than it was". They think you have your money and don't see why they should need to find more, AST contracts have little respect from them (and not much value in legislation anyway). The T's have had to find a deposit and up front rent for the new place, compounded by the Xmas period, they are likely to be skint. Non of this should be the L's problem in theory but the real world demonstrates differently. I don't usually expect the last months rent and will involve the G'tor for any outstanding when they've gone. I have disadvantage with some though as I don't pay out for check ins / check outs or RGI. That dosh stays in my control to hopefully cover some of the downsides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 The trouble with guarantors is not everyone can get one who is a home owner but we take the view that if the property has been tricky to rent out any guarantor is better than none. At least you have someone else who can put pressure on the tenant when needed and you still have a chance (though smaller) of getting rent arrears etc. The landlord would still have the final say whether to take on the tenant or not and the possible implications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 I've taken a similar view Grampa. Having had voids up to 6 months representing lost rents of £2k +, renting to higher risk T's becomes reasonable business as the losses from them (for the little flats in question) is less. Nowadays I understand about deeds of guarantee but have had success gaining dosh from Guarantors who hadn't presented me with a deed, this week in fact. I know that had they defended in court saying they didn't understand the responsibility, as they had just signed on the AST (5 years ago), I would have most likely got nowt. As they didn't understand, and feared my threat, a cheque for £996.21 arrived. The property is already mt for 10 weeks and the response to advertising is pitiful. My flexibility toward deposit, up front rent, Guarantor is a realistic expectation to have chance of renting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Not that I'm sympathetic to the T's but from the T point of view. They have paid a deposit (to the LL they believe) that can be used for unpaid rent, they most often view that the last months rent is therefore paid. Not many T's recognise the risk of cleaning / damage at departure, most state "it's better now than it was". They think you have your money and don't see why they should need to find more, AST contracts have little respect from them (and not much value in legislation anyway). The T's have had to find a deposit and up front rent for the new place, compounded by the Xmas period, they are likely to be skint. Non of this should be the L's problem in theory but the real world demonstrates differently. I don't usually expect the last months rent and will involve the G'tor for any outstanding when they've gone. I have disadvantage with some though as I don't pay out for check ins / check outs or RGI. That dosh stays in my control to hopefully cover some of the downsides. I see what you're saying, Cor, but the fact is that hubby and I HAVEN'T got their money (since it's obviously in a deposit protection scheme) which means that we've had to fund the mortgage payment this month,AND we too are skint following Christmas (hubby is freelance, so no work for 3 weeks and no pay for the work he did before Christmas until last Friday). If the tenants dispute us taking the deposit and it has to go to arbitration, that's another month's mortgage payment we have to find - not to mention anything in the way of repairs etc we may have to stump up for before the new tenants move in...and not forgetting the cost of the re-let - £240. These tenants are moving because a house that's less than 25 years old, with full gas central heating and UPVC double glazing is "too cold". They faffed us around before Christmas about when they were moving out, so I'm afraid I have little sympathy with them - especially as they chose to ignore 2 letters asking about the arrears. I would have had felt more charitable towards them if they'd actually spoken up before it got to that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 I've been putting up with this cr*p from T's since 1997. "This house is too expensive", but they had extra washer and drier in the porch and these and those in kitchen always running when I called. Hubby complained of son taking 2 half hour showers each day. They couldn't understand why it was expensive. A T stood in the garden in December complaining the house was always cold. As usual the back door was open. Fresh decoration crayoned on, "you have too expect that from kids don't you"? "It was an emergency I had to leave with 4 days notice, you can't expect another LL to keep the new place for a month can you?" Of course he didn't think he should pay the notice period (actually 7 weeks). I could go on, and on, and on....I've been putting up with this cr*p from T's since 1997 and I've realised that they are generally the style of 2 short planks. If we can't anticipate some of their antics so are we, but I challenge anyone to foresee them all. As the saying goes there is nowt more ingenious than an idiot, or summat like that. They have the upper hand due to sympathetic legislation we've to do the best we can with what we have to work with. Tracy if you find this little saga so stressful, and I know you've seen worse, your ageing process will be accelerating. Get what you can without too much effort, archive the issues your unable, or not worth the effort, to overcome. I'm sure my T's need me urgently somewhere the poor souls, but I'm off to practice my skiing on the golf course cos the 4x4 can't get over to the sailing club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 I know - this is the life we signed up to when we bought a BTL. Surprise, surprise our tenants have informed the LA this morning that they won't be moving out today - no van available. (because of course, they didn't know that on Friday, no, no absolutely not). They will be moving out on Wednesday...when the new tenants were supposed to be moving in - because their contract doesn't end until the 28th. Assuming there is no further snow, and they actually book a van and they wake up on Wednesday, feeling like moving out. Gotta love 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 I think a golden rule in becoming a LL when you are borrowing should be - don't get into it unless you can financially stand at least 3 months with a rental payment because the worst will happen at least 3 times in your landlord life. Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickpea Posted January 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Excellent advice, Mortitia- we did start this with a large slush fund, which has been eroded by our initial rubbish LA, first dire tenants and now this lot. I was naive enough to think that being a decent, fair LL *might* lead to the same in tenants...soon learnt that was a non-starter! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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