ARD Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 We had a notice served in June for the tenancy that was ending in August. The notice was hand delivered by the agent, signed, dated by the agent. As we realised the tenants were not moving had our solicitors do the paperwork for a court date. As of the hearing date the tenants were two months in arrears. We didnt go in for section 8 as at that time they were paying on time. At the hearing the judge asked the tenants if they had received and seen the section 21 notice, they lied and said they hadnt seen it - in fact one of them the one who signed the tenancy contract (who doesnt speak english , east europeans) didnt even look at the notice the judge put forward to them. Our solicitor explained that the proof of service which had been signed by the letting agent wasnt adequate alone and asked if the agent could confirm the notice was actually delivered - our solicitor explained that it was possible but not right away. The judge didnt want to hear any more and adjourned the hearing, we now have a date 10 weeks from now. What is shocking is that the tenants lied blatantly, the judge too didnt even ask them twice or confirm with us - because we know that the tenants had got it, as they had gone to the letting agent the next day to ask about it. Our solicitor has explained that I could file a N244 application(?) , Skeleton Argument(?) which tries to contest the decision and get the hearing date earlier. I am told this costs over £425, is that reasonable? My question to the forum is: - what can i do to get the tenant moved out, to pay, what legal grounds can i keep pushing this - these long periods of waiting for court dates etc is ridiculous, it is my flat, with defaulting tenants - can i change the locks, cut off their electricity? I may sound ridiculous myself but is there anything i can do to make their life miserable. Look forward to any responses. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julles Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Not sure that you can get the date any nearer ,proof of service is so important and I would have thought the agent would have known this ,and i would have thought your solicitor would have known to have had proof of service before he got to court. If the agent just put it through the door and did not get tenant to sign for it , there is only your word to say the tenant got it . Normally I post a copy (normal post is fine ) but get proof of sending as this is accepted by the court as proof of service I also send one registered post but the tenant can refuse that so it is returned to post office,(this is in addition to the normal posted one) And I also hand deliver using a witness to prove service with photo evidence . It is alot of messing around but worth it to not get it thrown out of court,an agent saying yes they post it by hand will not be stong enough evidence what you cannot do is change locks, cut off utilities or you will find you could easily be sued for illegal eviction and harrassment. Non proof of service and dates wrong on the section 21 is a common reason for a judge to side with tenants , £425 is alot of money but thats probably mostly your solicitors fees...which you seemed to have already paid them to go to court without relevant information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkerz Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Following on from Jules post - illegal eviction is a CRIMINAL offence - 6 months prison, £5k fine & a criminal record. Tenant could also sue and such civil claims usually reach 4 figures. Do I presume your solicitor is not a tenancy specialist? AFAIK if your solicitor had handed the judge an n215 signed by himself, the judge would have accepted that - the solicitor's 'word' is universally accepted - if he had served the s21 he would have sent it by regular post and the court would have accepted it had been served. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I would recommend you join the guild of residential landlords who will be able to help you. Call them and speak to Adrian who runs it before you join. https://www.landlordsguild.com/ 01423 873399 or 08453700107 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARD Posted November 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Not sure that you can get the date any nearer ,proof of service is so important and I would have thought the agent would have known this ,and i would have thought your solicitor would have known to have had proof of service before he got to court. If the agent just put it through the door and did not get tenant to sign for it , there is only your word to say the tenant got it . Normally I post a copy (normal post is fine ) but get proof of sending as this is accepted by the court as proof of service I also send one registered post but the tenant can refuse that so it is returned to post office,(this is in addition to the normal posted one) And I also hand deliver using a witness to prove service with photo evidence . It is alot of messing around but worth it to not get it thrown out of court,an agent saying yes they post it by hand will not be stong enough evidence what you cannot do is change locks, cut off utilities or you will find you could easily be sued for illegal eviction and harrassment. Non proof of service and dates wrong on the section 21 is a common reason for a judge to side with tenants , £425 is alot of money but thats probably mostly your solicitors fees...which you seemed to have already paid them to go to court without relevant information. Thanks a lot for your response.....if the agent has simple dropped it off, while the tenants were not there which is what we are told and then the agent comes for the next hearing and under oath confirms that, will that do down as satisfactory of the notice being delivered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARD Posted November 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Following on from Jules post - illegal eviction is a CRIMINAL offence - 6 months prison, £5k fine & a criminal record. Tenant could also sue and such civil claims usually reach 4 figures. Do I presume your solicitor is not a tenancy specialist? AFAIK if your solicitor had handed the judge an n215 signed by himself, the judge would have accepted that - the solicitor's 'word' is universally accepted - if he had served the s21 he would have sent it by regular post and the court would have accepted it had been served. Our solicitor was appointed by Letsure, we had no choice. Thats what I thought too, we were represented by our solicitor who was very confident on a positive outcome. I am angry at the way this was handled by the judge too, not even questionnig the tenants twice given that their ability to read and write english is so bad - and also not to even bring up the subject of overdue rent. The law is an ass in these matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARD Posted November 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 I would recommend you join the guild of residential landlords who will be able to help you. Call them and speak to Adrian who runs it before you join. https://www.landlordsguild.com/ 01423 873399 or 08453700107 Ok will do...thanks for the advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Usually a statement made by the person who 'served' the notice would suffice. After all that's all the court gets on the form when I fill it out to state I served the notice. I do generally send by proof of post (not signed for) also. The A being able to state that the T's went to their office to discuss the next day is bloody good evidence of the T's having sight. You may want to think ahead to a situation where the T's indicate they need an interpretor as they can't understand. I've tried' to head that one off with a bold statement on the AST to say that signing shows understanding but well we know how what value that might have ??????? Hound them with a County Court Claim for the rents, and anything else you can. Turn up to carry out those essential works, after 24 hours notice that is (sort of). There are things that it's reasonable for us to do while running our business, but be careful how you go about it as there are too many agencies willing to protect such scum. Amazing how such sorts can't understand enough to be useful and integrate into society, but learn fast enough how to abuse and get away with it. Eastern Europe is becoming cold now, good enough for 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARD Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Usually a statement made by the person who 'served' the notice would suffice. After all that's all the court gets on the form when I fill it out to state I served the notice. I do generally send by proof of post (not signed for) also. The A being able to state that the T's went to their office to discuss the next day is bloody good evidence of the T's having sight. You may want to think ahead to a situation where the T's indicate they need an interpretor as they can't understand. I've tried' to head that one off with a bold statement on the AST to say that signing shows understanding but well we know how what value that might have ??????? Hound them with a County Court Claim for the rents, and anything else you can. Turn up to carry out those essential works, after 24 hours notice that is (sort of). There are things that it's reasonable for us to do while running our business, but be careful how you go about it as there are too many agencies willing to protect such scum. Amazing how such sorts can't understand enough to be useful and integrate into society, but learn fast enough how to abuse and get away with it. Eastern Europe is becoming cold now, good enough for 'em. I am going to hound them for every penny, the costs of going up and down to the property (its a 120 mile rountrip). What I absolutely think was wrong that the judge let them off, knowing they hadnt paid,and also after being informed by our solicitor that he had spoken to the tenants before the hearing and they confirmed that they were aware why they were here. And guess what...they are now looking for council help....pathetic. And this is where it really sucks: we are now told that even if the bailiffs were called in there is an amnesty from around the 1st week of december to january, so no evictions take place? Did i hear that correctly? So i can tenants in my house living free of charge, and they wont vacate and that still entitles them for an amnesty. The laws in this country really need to change before we're taken over by thugs and free loaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkerz Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 I am going to hound them for every penny, the costs of going up and down to the property (its a 120 mile rountrip). What I absolutely think was wrong that the judge let them off, knowing they hadnt paid,and also after being informed by our solicitor that he had spoken to the tenants before the hearing and they confirmed that they were aware why they were here. And guess what...they are now looking for council help....pathetic. And this is where it really sucks: we are now told that even if the bailiffs were called in there is an amnesty from around the 1st week of december to january, so no evictions take place? Did i hear that correctly? So i can tenants in my house living free of charge, and they wont vacate and that still entitles them for an amnesty. The laws in this country really need to change before we're taken over by thugs and free loaders. There is indeed an amnesty, although it is usually around 14 Dec onwards. TBH, in many courts the bailiffs are so busy that it can take 6 or more weeks from possession date to bailiff eviction so it may not make much difference in your specific case. I don't believe High Court Enforcement Officers operate that amnesty - just depends whether you think the cost is worth it http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/bailiffs/0-59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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