poppy46 Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 Hi, hope you can help. My tenant of 4 yrs years recently vacated the house. We have always got on well, even with me babysitting for her at times! A couple of weeks before she left, i reminded her of her obligations to leave house in good order etc. It was a total refurb when she moved in with everything new. As i had known her a while, i trusted her to leave things clean and decorated etc as requested. We agreed that the carpets were awful and at least one should be renewed so i kept back £100 of her deposit. The next day a fitter quoted me nearly £200 so i requested she return £100 to cover, and she did. Only after inspecting the property in day light and in detail, did i find it disgusting and filthy. I sent her texts saying i should have kept all the deposit if i had realised but had trusted her too much. A few days later, her rent was paid into my account by mistake and she duly asked me to return it. Having spent a total of 32 man hours cleaning and decorating, i told her i was returning it minus £75 to put towards a new hob cooker as she had left mine filthy and un cleanable. I was not charging her for my time or cleaning/painting supplies etc. I have since had a letter saying shes seen CAB and wants her £75 as i have no right to have kept it ! anyone had similar experiences???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkerz Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 Hi, hope you can help. My tenant of 4 yrs years recently vacated the house. We have always got on well, even with me babysitting for her at times! A couple of weeks before she left, i reminded her of her obligations to leave house in good order etc. It was a total refurb when she moved in with everything new. As i had known her a while, i trusted her to leave things clean and decorated etc as requested. We agreed that the carpets were awful and at least one should be renewed so i kept back £100 of her deposit. The next day a fitter quoted me nearly £200 so i requested she return £100 to cover, and she did. Only after inspecting the property in day light and in detail, did i find it disgusting and filthy. I sent her texts saying i should have kept all the deposit if i had realised but had trusted her too much. A few days later, her rent was paid into my account by mistake and she duly asked me to return it. Having spent a total of 32 man hours cleaning and decorating, i told her i was returning it minus £75 to put towards a new hob cooker as she had left mine filthy and un cleanable. I was not charging her for my time or cleaning/painting supplies etc. I have since had a letter saying shes seen CAB and wants her £75 as i have no right to have kept it ! anyone had similar experiences???? Ultimately, only a court could decide this. However, when assessing the value of the damage to the property, are you taking into account 'fair wear and tear'. Lets look at that carpet that needed replacing - firstly, do you have proof of the condition of the carpet at the start of the tenancy - if not, how do you intend to prove to the court that any damage was down to the tenant? Let's assume you do have proof. You need to take into account how old the carpet was at the end of the tenancy, and it's life expectancy. Standard 'rental' carpet has an expected lifespan of 5 years. Therefore, even if the carpet was new, the carpet was 4 years old at the end of the tenancy, the tenant would only be liable for a fifth of the value of replacement - because you have only lost 1 years worth of use. Similar principles apply to just about all damage, she is certainly not expected to re-decorate, the term is 'betterment' and it is not allowed. How are you defining how clean the property was left? Do you have proof of its cleanliness at the start of the tenancy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy46 Posted November 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 Ultimately, only a court could decide this. However, when assessing the value of the damage to the property, are you taking into account 'fair wear and tear'. Lets look at that carpet that needed replacing - firstly, do you have proof of the condition of the carpet at the start of the tenancy - if not, how do you intend to prove to the court that any damage was down to the tenant? Let's assume you do have proof. You need to take into account how old the carpet was at the end of the tenancy, and it's life expectancy. Standard 'rental' carpet has an expected lifespan of 5 years. Therefore, even if the carpet was new, the carpet was 4 years old at the end of the tenancy, the tenant would only be liable for a fifth of the value of replacement - because you have only lost 1 years worth of use. Similar principles apply to just about all damage, she is certainly not expected to re-decorate, the term is 'betterment' and it is not allowed. How are you defining how clean the property was left? Do you have proof of its cleanliness at the start of the tenancy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy46 Posted November 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 Thank you for your guidance, much appreciated. The carpets, at her own admission, were not salvageable due to the amount of spills and stains on them. I am most upset with her because i had specifically asked her to try and clean them at least, which she did not. Her contract states that the property should have been handed back in good decorative order. Everything was brand new when she took it on. I do allow for wear and tear, as i have replaced the kitchen and bathroom flooring at my own expense, but can not accept pure laziness in not cleaning or attempting to splash a little emulsion on the walls. I have photographic evidence of the condition of the house after i had inspected it. Can i not claim compensation from her for all the work and time in putting it back into decent order? I have witnesses who saw the condition of the house, despite her saying she had scrubbed it top to bottom. I know it was my own mistake in giving her back part of the deposit as i trusted her. Had i been an agency, they would have got professional cleaners in and charged her a lot of money. I also received a bill yesterday from a gas engineer. Last june she told me she had smelt gas so called out the usual engineer who does all the services. She did not ask me first if this was ok to do. I understand its important if you smell gas but should she not have cleared it with me first? This is turning into a bit of a battle of wills i think. I am not an unfair person, but will not accept being taken for a fool either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 Rule No.1 never let to friends and family it causes too many problems and friends quickly become ex-friends. Do you really want all this stress over £75 which in Landlord's terms is a small amount of money. You have your property back and you have cleaned up ready for the next tenant. Offset your damages and losses against your tax year and move on I say rather than a prolonged contest on who is right or wrong..... and strike her off your Christmas card list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy46 Posted November 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 Thanks Melboy, i think you are probably right! I hate to be beaten tho ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkerz Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 Thank you for your guidance, much appreciated. The carpets, at her own admission, were not salvageable due to the amount of spills and stains on them. I am most upset with her because i had specifically asked her to try and clean them at least, which she did not. Her contract states that the property should have been handed back in good decorative order. Everything was brand new when she took it on. I do allow for wear and tear, as i have replaced the kitchen and bathroom flooring at my own expense, but can not accept pure laziness in not cleaning or attempting to splash a little emulsion on the walls. I have photographic evidence of the condition of the house after i had inspected it. Can i not claim compensation from her for all the work and time in putting it back into decent order? I have witnesses who saw the condition of the house, despite her saying she had scrubbed it top to bottom. I know it was my own mistake in giving her back part of the deposit as i trusted her. Had i been an agency, they would have got professional cleaners in and charged her a lot of money. I also received a bill yesterday from a gas engineer. Last june she told me she had smelt gas so called out the usual engineer who does all the services. She did not ask me first if this was ok to do. I understand its important if you smell gas but should she not have cleared it with me first? This is turning into a bit of a battle of wills i think. I am not an unfair person, but will not accept being taken for a fool either. Unfortunately, what you want, and what the law says is required from the tenant, may not be exactly the same thing Lets go through this list as best we can. Carpets - cost you £200 to replace - provably brand new at the start of the tenancy (receipt?) and @ that price, I am going to guess they were 'okay' but not 'quality' carpets. Therefore, I would suggest that they would have a lifespan of 5/6 years - so the tenant would be found liable for around £40 or £50. I would expect a hob to last at least 10 years (depending on brand) so if that too was new, and provably unusable at the end of the tenancy after only 4 years, I would expect the tenant to pay at least 60% of the replacement cost. If it's a matter of dirt - then T would be liable for the lower of that 60% or the full cost of having it cleaned (but can you prove which is lower?) Decorative order - the contract terms are unenforceable - did you google 'betterment'? After 4 years, you have to expect the decoration to be a little 'jaded' and you can not charge the tenant for that, it is kind-of included in the rent! However, you can charge the tenant for any damage that is above and beyond that. So, on a room-by-room basis (some judges work on wall-by-wall!) you need to assess if the walls were 'jaded' or genuinely in need of re-decoration. Most people would expect emulsioned walls to need a lick of paint after 5 years, but glosswork may last a bit longer - lets say 7. Not all judges will accept it, but lets say a judge will compensate you for your time @ £10 per hour, and you took 8 hours cleaning & 24 hours decorating. Thats £240 decoration labour, plus materials (£150?) so £390 to redecorate 5(?) rooms - £78 a room. For each room that was genuinely in need of re-decoration, you would claim around £26 (a third) based on 6 years expected lifespan. Will your witnesses appear in court to back up your comments on cleanliness? Did you invite her back to the property to review its state? If you didn't, will the judge wonder why? whether your claims are justified? But lets assume he does agree with your claim that the place was dirty at the end of the tenancy and clean (on the basis it was all new) at the start of the tenancy, then it is perfectly reasonable for you to be compensated in full for your cleaning time as dirt is not fair wear & tear. Using the same ratio as above - 8 hours cleaning @ £10/hr - £80. Yes, you could have employed professional cleaners, and presuming the judge agreed that was justified, you could have claimed their full cost. By rights, the tenant should have made some attempt to have contacted you with regard to the gas smell - but her actions didn't cause you any financial loss, you would have had to call out the same engineer who would have billed you the same amount. You could (technically) tell the plumber to bill the tenant (not you) because you didn't authorise the works, it was she who contracted him. But is it worth p'ing off a tradesman for a technicality like that? Ultimately, take Melboys advice - you have had (what?) £25000 rent in the last 4 years, you can afford less than 1% of that to put things right - and it's tax allowable too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I believe it is universally accepted in the lettingindustry that a landlord cannot claim for their own cleaning time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkerz Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 I believe it is universally accepted in the lettingindustry that a landlord cannot claim for their own cleaning time. Usual, but not universal. The Dispute |Service (for example) state "It is not usually supportable to claim for the landlord's time and inconvenience however a reasonable claim can be considered if proportionate and supported by comparable examples" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 I believe that claims for payment of landlords time is NOT accepted by the courts. My understanding is that there is case law supporting this position and the basis is that landlords cannot be expected to be paid for running their own business. A landlord can employ a contractor to carry out the work and then claim the cost. They can also claim the money from an unsuspecting tenant but it will not be upheld should the mattter go to court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.