tenants have left and damage to property

[gloomy]

Hi, looking for advise regarding tenants and damage. Five years ago I let my property out to my uncle, his wife, four children and two dogs. The house had been completely refurbished at considerable cost to myself. It was new, inside and out. Six months ago they gave notice and left, leaving rent arrears of over £6000.00 with the promise that they would pay within two months. They were true to their word, and paid within the agreed time. My problem is the condition of the property inside. It was left clean and tidy, as were the gardens, but the whole house needs total redecoration in my opinion. Where pictures have been hung, there are marks, picture hooks remain in place, some scuffs to skirtings and walls The carpets were very expensive and now need cleaning. The master bedroom's ensuite has a broken door to one unit and the sealant around the bath has come away. I was aware that this bathroom had a leak, and the tenants did redecorate after this was repaired. In fact they did many repairs and snagging to the proerty prior to them actualy moving in, and at their cost.

I have had estimates for the house to be completely redecorated at a cost of around £5300.00. I feel this is a fair price. It is now my intention to pursue these people through court, they have agreed to pay for the damage to the bathroom, but feel that I am being unfair in asking for them to pay costs for redecoration. I have to add that as this was a family member I did not feel the need to go through the usua letting procedures. There is was inventory, EPC, and the Gas Boiler never had its legal checks throughout the tenancy. I have been informed that this could cause a problem for me if mentioned in the small claims court. Any advise would be much appreciated.

[kerbut]

Have you ever heard of fair wear and tear after 5 years ?

[gloomy]

yes I have heard of fair wear and tear, but at what percentage do I consider to be fair wear and tear? As I stated, the property was refurbished, and I expected to see the house in the same condition. In a small claims court I feel that this should be in my favour, and that the tenants should pay for the property to be returned back to its original condition.

[Melboy]

Gas Boiler never had its legal checks throughout the tenancy. I have been informed that this could cause a problem for me

Yes it could and you would possibly be fined for this as no gas certificate of inspection & safety can be applied retrospectively in the Courts.

The way I see it is you have received your non payment of rent which is amazing as plenty of Landlord's don't receive a penny..... especially 6 grand.

£5300 sounds a lot of money to me for a painting job? They have offered to pay for some repairs which is good.

5 years is a long time for a rental property and there has to be a factor of fair wear and tear in that calculation of £5300.

My advice is to move on and get your next tenant in and Oh! never rent to family member's it can cause a lot grief in my experience.

[gloomy]

Thank you for your reply. The Gas cert I feel would not really be an issue, unless the tenants made it so in court...I dont think they will, and besides Ive been told that it would only be a warning. These people have no financial means of representaion, so they will not be using Solicitors. They were good tenants I admit, but for personal reasons I have a point to prove, and taking them to court knowing that they do not have the funds to pay for damage etc will be upsetting for them. Do I have a good enough case ? how much do you think they will have to pay, or will I end up with egg on my face...I dont want this to look like a witch hunt in the small claims court.

[Melboy]

As many Landlord's have found out that you can take a bad tenant to the small claims court and win a judgment and costs. Getting them to pay up is a whole new challenge.

Most Landlord's just write off any costs against their tax year to avoid unecessary hassle and further financial loss..... and are you now going to say that you never declared the earnings to HMRC? If by any chance you didn't then your family tenants would have the biggest ace to play against you should you follow the path you intend to go down.

[gloomy]

I have declared my earnings to HMRC. As I stated before, the only things I have not done are EPC, Landlord Gas checks and Inventory...as the property was totally refurbished before hand, I should think all my receipts will cover this as proof. As for courts, I can well afford to take this all the way. I want them to pay, I know they will only be able to afford a small amount each month, and as soon as they stop paying I shall have them back in court. To me it seems black and white, I have a sound case against them, and the outcome will be in my favour. Given wear and tear, how much do you think they will have to pay, and will they pay all my court and legal costs as well.

[snorkerz]

Without knowing the extent of the refurbishment, would offer the following comments.

Afer 5 years wear & tear, you would expect any emulsioned walls to need re-painting - a court is unlikely to award you anything for emulsioning.

Gloss work is similar, depending on the quality of the finish - a premium job done by trained proffessionals (you say you have receipts) may extend the lifespan to 7/8 years - but don't expect more than 30% of repainting glosswork (if anything).

A similar calculation would apply to wallpaper - cheap wallpaper is going to be tatty after 5 years. Full stop. Heavy duty stuff may make it to 10. So, if every single wall was wallpapered, and every single wall needed re-papering at the end of the tenancy, don't expect more than 50% of the cost of doing so - and that is assuming you can convince the judge that all the walls did need re-doing. Judges tend to work on a 'per wall' basis, not per-room. If a kiddy draws on one wall in a bedroom, one wall needs re-decorating, not the whole room.

Your claim is in excess of £5k, so it will be allocated to the fast-track (not small claims) so you are looking at court fees iro £1k. Whether the tenants will be liable for costs if you win depends on their behaviour, if your claim is excessive and they have offered to pay for what they believe are reasonable repairs then it is by no means certain that costs (all or part) would be awarded against them - it is both parties responsibility (inc you) to try and keep matters out of court - see the Civil Proceedure Rules 'Overriding Objective' http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part01

With regard to what you can expect even if you win - defendants on benefits are rarely ordered to pay more than a fiver a month. The benefits system only pays them what they supposedly need to live on and the judge is not allowed to leave them with insufficient to live on. Nothing spare means unable to afford to pay anything back.

[gloomy]

The tenants did all the painting of the the walls at their expence using quality paint and to a high standard. So you could say the paintwork was theirs. I will continue with this court action...but my concern is the Gas Safety Cert. If this is discussed in Court, what would the outcome be for me.

[snorkerz]

The tenants did all the painting of the the walls at their expence using quality paint and to a high standard. So you could say the paintwork was theirs. I will continue with this court action...but my concern is the Gas Safety Cert. If this is discussed in Court, what would the outcome be for me.

The Gas Safety Certificate could, in the worst case, be used as proof that the property was uninhabitable. In which case, the court could agree to a counterclaim of up to 12 months rent. They couldn't claim the whole 5 years because they (like you) have to mitigate their loss and it is generally agreed that if a tenant has a problem with a property, they would be able to mitigate the loss by moving within 12 months. TBH, I wouldn't even expect that, the question in the civil court is what is the difference between the value of what they paid for (a property with the certificate) and what they got (one without).

Your real problem is a criminal prosecution by the HSE (they bring these cases, not the police) which can result in a fine of up to £20k. That won't happen to you, £20k would be for severe cases - perhaps a landlord who had been specifically notified and made a concious decision to ignore his obligation. However, a claim against you by the HSE would result in some sort of fine (and criminal record) but probably 4 figures, not 5. Win or lose the civil claim, an irate tenant could subsequently 'advise' the HSE of the issue.

[kerbut]

Quote:

The house had been completely refurbished at considerable cost to myself. It was new, inside and out.

Quote:

The tenants did all the painting of the the walls at their expence using quality paint and to a high standard.

So why does it need redecorating to the tune of £5300 ? , sounds like an inter family vendetta to me .

[gloomy]

Prior to the tenants moving into the house, they asked if they could decorate in the colors of their choice. I had no problem with this, the colors were light and bright, and it was their time and money. I do not see this as a vendetta, more a case of the house should be in the condition it was first let out in. The sum of £5300.00 is how much it will cost for tradesmen to do this. I am expecting to recieve at least half this amount in court. Do you think this is a reasonable amount,?

[snorkerz]

If you are expecting to receive half, then you claim for half, thus not expecting tenants to pay exagerated court fees for an exagerated claim. This isn't a gaim of poker, it is legal process - did you read the 'overiding objective' I linked to?

We can't tell you what is a reasonable expectation without a detailed breakdown of the claim, but if you are determined to see this through then go for it - what is the worst that could happen if you hack off the ex-tenants? Oh, you've already been told that.

[gloomy]

Updates and advise please. My Solicitor recently wrote to my former tenants enclosing the costs of all the repairs and damage,( a full breakdown of this work was not included). I have now decided that I will persue them for loss of income as well, as I am not in a financial position to fund these repairs etc. They have now replied, explaining that they will pay for the damage to the bathroom, but that the rest is wear and tear, they have also asked for copies of the contract, the epc, tenancy agreement, Inventory and that they have complained to HSE because there was no Gas Safety Cert. Do you think this will be a problem in court? Of course they know that these agreement etc never existed, and that they never asked for the boiler to be serviced. My question is how would a judge see this claim? and even if the GSC comes into question how will that effect my claim?

[Melboy]

copies of the contract, the epc, tenancy agreement, Inventory and that they have complained to HSE because there was no Gas Safety Cert. Do you think this will be a problem in court? Of course they know that these agreement etc never existed, and that they never asked for the boiler to be serviced. My question is how would a judge see this claim? and even if the GSC comes into question how will that effect my claim?

Yes, it will be a problem for you.

That they never asked for the boiler to be serviced.

First thing.... they do not have to ask YOU to have a safety certificate in place prior to letting your property out. It is your responsibility as the landlord and it is the Law.

Secondly.....A boiler servicing is not a gas safety certificate although most landlord's have both items carried out at the same time to save money and peace of mind.

On this one thing alone you will be heavily fined if HSE get involved in the case on your tenants behalf.

[Mortitia]

Anzac - did it never occur to you to inspect the property during the 5 years tenancy or were you an absentee landlord sunning yourself in the Antipodes or similar?

That being the case I can't see any judge having a lot of sympathy with your arguments. Kerbut mentions 'family vendetta' so could this be the 'revenge of the Limey'?

Mortitia

[bjmlegal]

Anzac123,

Be careful in the assumptions you make, the fact your ex tenants have asked for this information is a rather large indication that they are getting some sort of professional advice. Citizens Advice would certainly help them and if you're really unlucky the charity Shelter for example will be all over a case like this. Shelter are looking to support anyone who happens to fall into the hands of a Landlord not meeting their legal responsibilities and will pursue them for the maximum possible remedy / penalty. The resources of these organisations far outweigh yours and simply judging on the limited information you have provided in this thread your tenants would have their full backing.

The Gas Safety point is covered under the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998. For a single breach of one of these Gas Safety Regulations the maximum penalty in the lower court (Magistrates') is £20,000 or up to one year imprisonment for any offences after 16th January, 2009. In the Crown Court any offences, after 16th January, 2009 can carry an unlimited fine or up to 2 years imprisonment.

Bringing it back to the damage you are claiming for £6000 to keep things simple, and you have already had a great insight on what your likely to achieve from Flydeboy. For arguments sake lets say that you have a valid claim of 30% of your original figure you can expect to get £1800.00. A simple calculation will tell you that you only need to receive a penalty of 9% of the maximum that can be awarded in the Magistrates court and you are already only breaking even. This is without taking any costs for either party into consideration.

We would suggest that given the fact your tenant has already agreed to pay something towards the damage do you best to keep this out of the courts. Consider the point that you have stated you allow for wear and tear but you also expect the property to be in the condition it was let in. After 5 years this is very unlikely and any judge will be unlikely support your claim.

Another point to consider is that under the Gas Safety regulations it is your responsibility to have the boiler serviced EVERY year, records need to be kept for 2 years and the tenant must be provided with a copy of the report within 28 days of each check. Judging from your thread the tenants were in occupation for 5 years so in fact you have failed to meet your responsibly under this legislation on five occasions, we would suggest that getting off with a warning in these circumstances seems wholly unlikely.

You are of course free to pursue this matter as far as you like but with any form of litigation its important to be objective and consider your case against any potential defense / counter claim. Consider that you could be overlooking your responsibilities and the failure to meet them in your attempts to get one up on the other party. "Egg on your chin" as you put it certainly springs to mind...

[Grampa]

Allowing 2 adults, 4 kids & 2 dogs in a property for 5 years you would expect a lot lot higher wear and tear and most landlords would expect to decorate on empty possession in that situation. Damage and cleanliness are another matter but you would have to prove the check-in condition with ideally a signed inventory.

Regarding the gas cert or lack of it as the tenants have vacated and no-one was injured I am not sure you will be penalized if you can now demonstrate you have one on place. This is just my thoughts on it and not sure that will be the case.

I

[gloomy]

Thank you for your replies. Re; the GSC, I am not concerned, I have enough money in my pot to disperse that situation. Besides, the ex tenants have more to worry about then informing HSE...and I doubt they have even considered Shelter. As for receiving professional advise, this is unlikely, they would not consider this. My guess is that they are waiting for a court date, and then throw everything out into the open then, leaving the judge to decide. I want these people to pay financially, and I will continue with my claim.

Anzac123,

Be careful in the assumptions you make, the fact your ex tenants have asked for this information is a rather large indication that they are getting some sort of professional advice. Citizens Advice would certainly help them and if you're really unlucky the charity Shelter for example will be all over a case like this. Shelter are looking to support anyone who happens to fall into the hands of a Landlord not meeting their legal responsibilities and will pursue them for the maximum possible remedy / penalty. The resources of these organisations far outweigh yours and simply judging on the limited information you have provided in this thread your tenants would have their full backing.

The Gas Safety point is covered under the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998. For a single breach of one of these Gas Safety Regulations the maximum penalty in the lower court (Magistrates') is £20,000 or up to one year imprisonment for any offences after 16th January, 2009. In the Crown Court any offences, after 16th January, 2009 can carry an unlimited fine or up to 2 years imprisonment.

Bringing it back to the damage you are claiming for £6000 to keep things simple, and you have already had a great insight on what your likely to achieve from Flydeboy. For arguments sake lets say that you have a valid claim of 30% of your original figure you can expect to get £1800.00. A simple calculation will tell you that you only need to receive a penalty of 9% of the maximum that can be awarded in the Magistrates court and you are already only breaking even. This is without taking any costs for either party into consideration.

We would suggest that given the fact your tenant has already agreed to pay something towards the damage do you best to keep this out of the courts. Consider the point that you have stated you allow for wear and tear but you also expect the property to be in the condition it was let in. After 5 years this is very unlikely and any judge will be unlikely support your claim.

Another point to consider is that under the Gas Safety regulations it is your responsibility to have the boiler serviced EVERY year, records need to be kept for 2 years and the tenant must be provided with a copy of the report within 28 days of each check. Judging from your thread the tenants were in occupation for 5 years so in fact you have failed to meet your responsibly under this legislation on five occasions, we would suggest that getting off with a warning in these circumstances seems wholly unlikely.

You are of course free to pursue this matter as far as you like but with any form of litigation its important to be objective and consider your case against any potential defense / counter claim. Consider that you could be overlooking your responsibilities and the failure to meet them in your attempts to get one up on the other party. "Egg on your chin" as you put it certainly springs to mind...

[snorkerz]

I have now decided that I will pursue them for loss of income as well, as I am not in a financial position to fund these repairs etc.

I am not concerned, I have enough money in my pot to disperse that situation.

Another contradiction. . .

Anzac123, you are welcome to waste the courts time and face the consequences (if any) but if you are a troll, intending on wasting our time, please don't. Judges are paid handsomely for their time, we are not.

[gloomy]

Firstly, I would like to thank you for all your replies. It has been most helpful, it has given me an insight which I did not have. Solicitors, I know will write what you want them too, if you pay and its within their legal boundry. YYou have all made valid points. I agree with most of what you say. From an outsiders point of view I see a person hiding behind the law and money, someone who can take an issue all the way, just because they can. That I can have a rented property returned to its original condition after five years, the fact that I have not taken into account fair wear and tear, how many, and what type of people lived there, having no inventory, epc and gas safety cert. The issue that the tenants could counter claim for lack of safety...taking this to court, maybe the judge would look at the fact that the tenants paid their rent in full, that they have showed willing to resolve the problems and maybe the judge would question why I was spending so much on legal fee's and that I would either come out with very little or break even. That he would possibly see this as a persecution. As for internet troll, no I am not, and believe me you have not wasted your time. Thank you.