Rental Property Electrical Checks.

[Melboy]

Happy New Tax Year !

Speaking to my Sparky this morning and he tells me that there is a whole new raft of electrical checks coming in for Landlord's very shortly including.....

1. Certification of domestic electric installation plus 10 year certificate will now be compulsory for all private landlord's and will need to be registered.

2. Electrical consumer RCD units (fuseboards) must conform to the latest 17th edition installations.

I have no reason to doubt him at all and I have known him for 20 years plus he has completed numerous works for me and he knows that getting uneccessary work and money out of me is a time-wasting exercise on his part....

So has anyone else heard or read anything to back this up?

As it happens I was going to upgrade all my properties this year to the latest 17th edition because all my properties have the old fuseboards fitted and are 25 years old.

[Carryon Regardless]

I haven't heard anything on this Mel, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Is there a chance your Sparky is hearing something about Selective Licencing ? The list of required standards for that is long, includes an electrical inspection / remedial works, and will be very expensive for many.

I would be confused as to why it would only be the consumer unit that would require meeting the latest standard even though that would require upgrading to RCCB protection (unless cables are buried 50mm into the walls etc which is unlikely).

It used to be a matter of course for me to self fit split load consumers but nowadays I would be a naughty boy so I've stopped.

I preferred lighting circuits to not have RCCB as a scenario of carrying hot things in a kitchen, or a child in the bath when the lights trip is scary to me. Progress says we should though.

On a similar note while trying to organise for my new boiler (in a rental) I have been told that soon enough we shall have to ensure all hot water can't be heated above 42 degrees (I think). This would mean boilers and cylinders may need some upgrading, so I have been told ??

Your area Mel, is it true ?

[Grampa]

Mel, has your sparky got any timescales?

[Melboy]

I haven't heard anything on this Mel, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Is there a chance your Sparky is hearing something about Selective Licencing ? The list of required standards for that is long, includes an electrical inspection / remedial works, and will be very expensive for many.

I would be confused as to why it would only be the consumer unit that would require meeting the latest standard even though that would require upgrading to RCCB protection (unless cables are buried 50mm into the walls etc which is unlikely).

It used to be a matter of course for me to self fit split load consumers but nowadays I would be a naughty boy so I've stopped.

I preferred lighting circuits to not have RCCB as a scenario of carrying hot things in a kitchen, or a child in the bath when the lights trip is scary to me. Progress says we should though.

On a similar note while trying to organise for my new boiler (in a rental) I have been told that soon enough we shall have to ensure all hot water can't be heated above 42 degrees (I think). This would mean boilers and cylinders may need some upgrading, so I have been told ??

Your area Mel, is it true ?

He told me that my own home 16th edition (10years old) Electrical Consumer unit and fully upgraded at the time to modern specs. would mean a replacement to a 17th edition unit should any electrical work be required.

The temperature control for hot water systems means that all HW temperatures have to be controlled by adding thermostatic controls to existing hot water tanks or boilers and not replacement of existing equipment as fitted.

It's all getting quite stupid now! It's like I said when a boiler is replaced it is mandatory for radiator TRV's to be fitted but this is generally not happening if the customer or landlord doesn't want the additional expense and many don't!

Grampa

From the way he was talking I would have thought within the next 2 years or perhaps sooner?

Personally I would have said compulsary electrical checks and certification within the year myself.

[Grampa]

I don't think it is a bad thing as long as it only has to be done every 5/10 years or even a one off as soon as a property is rented for the first time.

We alway recommend one for new landlords but not many do it.

Have just taken on a new 4 bed property that the landlord is doing up and we are helping out a bit with tradesman etc. It turns out all the spurs that have been added (surface mounted) don't have a earth. The previous owner came off original junction points with 2 core cabling. Doh

[Carryon Regardless]

The regulations call for an inspection at least every 10 years, or at change of occupation. So for us to comply, if this becomes mandatory, it would be an inspection at every new tenancy.

As usual some prat behind the desk comes up with a pretty sounding theory but doesn't consider the real world outside the office, after all why should greedy LL's take any profit from the business.

I have updated myself to the 17th Edition Regs qualification but not done the Inspection and Testing course, to be honest I've spat my dummy out with all the Bureaucratic cr*p that gives big companies more dosh for what is often a hindrance to real life progress. Here I mean the NIC registration before I am deemed suitable.

Any way I can't state for sure that a previously safe electrical installation that would still be safe if tested to the old regs would now be considered unsafe because it doesn't have the latest BS number on the breakers for example (or more like EEC certification approval), but I do think that there will be a lot of misinterpretation (and confusion) of the regs and requirements.

New regs came in and new installations had to meet those regs. Any testing of existing installations would pass without rewiring to the latest standard.

The fitting of a new consumer doesn't g'tee that the installation has been wired to a safe standard a good inspection should pick that up and if bad it would have failed anyway.

Mel my new boiler is being installed Tuesday, left to my own, dangerous, devices this would have happened for the T's over a week ago. Poor buggers are still cold.

But there now has to be a thermostat wired in, to a location that doesn't have an additional heat source (gas fire, cooker for example), this as well as the 6 TRV's already fitted. I can't get my head round the why.

[Melboy]

[

Mel my new boiler is being installed Tuesday, left to my own, dangerous, devices this would have happened for the T's over a week ago. Poor buggers are still cold.

But there now has to be a thermostat wired in, to a location that doesn't have an additional heat source (gas fire, cooker for example), this as well as the 6 TRV's already fitted. I can't get my head round the why.

Not sure either I shall have to speak to my Son to see if he can come up with the reason as to why. What does your installer say as to why?

Room Zoning of thermostat for local heat source?

[Chestnut]

1) Original Post - electrical checks etc. I don't know but I suspect Sparkies (who like some work) may get a little carried away with what's actually mandatory for new builds and for extended circuits on existing (e.g. new consumer units necessary), and what's desirable (but not mandatory) for unaltered existing builds.

2) To Cor: 42deg Centigrade is apparently for safety at hot taps, not the system setting, which I'm told (by Energy Saving Trust when I suggested lowering it) must be at min 60deg to avoid risk of legionaires in the cylinder. Hence line to domestic outlets often now has thermostatic mixing valve (with cold connection) set at 42deg to ensure hot taps no more than this. My shower mixer has a 38deg stop which normally gets over-ridden!

3) To Cor again: According to my heating engineer new CH circuits are fitted with one locked set rad without TRV controlled by room thermostat to ensure system not dead-headed by TRV's. The room thermostat is tied to condensing boiler system's 3 min. pump over-run which prevents boiler overheating. If the room thermostat (usually in hall) was near another heat source it could shut system down leaving other rooms without controllable heat.

I'm not a regs expert - Just a technical thinker, who's been through professional electrical and heating upgrade within last 12 months. I look forward to being corrected and updated!

[Carryon Regardless]

You may remember that all rads have a TRV.

I'm aware, I think, that sleeping areas require separate zoning nowadays and TRV's can satisfy this requirement.

During a gas inspection at a different property last week, different chappie, he said the new regs call for a wired stat. This, he says, is to save power as a wired stat shuts down the pump, TRV's don't.

His discussion then evolved into learning stats, improved efficiencies with modern electronics........ It was easier to listen (well sort of as I have 5 (will evolve to 7) zones in this place using Heatmiser gear so methinks I already know some).

If power saving of the pump is the reasoning (minimal I reckon) I think we're back to the guy sat in the office with pretty theories.

Another little thought I had some time ago.

The regs call for TRV's and so independent heat control.

Where I zone by local programmable stats operating a motorized valve a TRV would be silly. Do regs still tell me to fit a TRV ?

The installer has stated a wired stat need be fitted before he can certify the job, I didn't question him as to why.

His preference was to fit a RF stat (remote) for £175. That didn't appeal to me so then was the discussion as to where my stat should go, hence the statement that it should be in such as a hallway and unaffected by a fire. The open plan lounge doesn't have one (hallway that is).

[Melboy]

[

During a gas inspection at a different property last week, different chappie, he said the new regs call for a wired stat. This, he says, is to save power as a wired stat shuts down the pump, TRV's don't.

New one on me that is. the regulation that is. All this on a gas safety inspection?

[Chestnut]

Re. TRVs on radiators: To be clearer I should have said all mine have TRVs except the radiator fitted with lock valves nearest the 'room' thermostat in the hall stairwell, which controls the pump etc. and acts as pump bypass if all TRVs go to shut state. This makes technical sense to me, whether or not a regulation.

The pump also has an over-run relief valve in case both hot water and heating valves (S plan system) become shut together - a manufacturer's requirement for the particular boiler.

Re. Regs, Does this link enlighten? http://www.idhee.org.uk/TACMA%20Guide%202010.pdf

[Carryon Regardless]

What I understood was that new installation should have a wired stat. I don't think it is suggested that this is fitted to existing, well I hope not.

Chestnut don't all modern boilers incorporate an auto bypass ?

The only boiler in my properties that doesn't is the one that comes out Tuesday. Thanks you've just reminded me to close the bypass valve upstairs when I'm there.

[Chestnut]

Chestnut don't all modern boilers incorporate an auto bypass ?

Many do, but evidently not my Worcester Bosch Greenstar installed July 2009. It's OK with single three port Y plan valve but when my system was changed to two two port S plan last year the W-B man who checked the boiler insisted a proper circuit relief valve was fitted for the 3 min pump over-run. (A fixed partially open service valve as a bypass was not recommended.) This information is in the W-B instruction manual.

[omegaweapon_1]

Good afternoon all Electrical regulations are constantly being updated unfortunately currently 17th edition BS7671, it does create costs for us all as we have to update qualifications and the way work is done due to a few amendments they decide to make, in regards to fuse board upgrades and inspection and testing it may seem very costly and a waste of money but some of the cowboy jobs we have come across is shocking, just finished a full house renovation in Birmingham the other week and its looking stunning, Full rewire, plastering and building work, the house was in shocking condition when we got in and in just ten days have turned it round putting in 20 hours a day some days half 7 start - 3.30 following morning finish to then be back again at 7.30, we might as well of slept there heehee, anyways they had three little fuse boards all spurred off one another with there entire kitchen been on a 16amp radial circuit with the lighting cable just rammed into the mcb. Getting your houses up to current standards if it was me i would see it as an investment guys http://electricianwestmidlands.moonfruit.com/#/home/4562097782 please take a look at our latest house renovation many thanks for your time Steve

[omegaweapon_1]

oh and testing and inspection guys is every ten years or change of occupancy

[Grampa]

If the law is going to change so a new elecy cert is required every time a new tenant goes in then the law is crazy.

What about winter lets when the property is only let for 4-6 months.

[Chestnut]

To Electrian Enterprise Ltd: I think you may have made my earlier point!

I don't know but I suspect Sparkies (who like some work) may get a little carried away with what's actually mandatory....

Wouldn't it be helpful if the guys who write and revise these tomes of regulations would provide a little simple explanation that enables the professional tradesmen, who are expected to read and work to them, to explain to the rest of us ordinary thinking mortal customers in simple terms why various such changes are specified?

[Melboy]

As I have been informed the requirement for a full inspection of electrical systems is not a mandatory requirement on tenancy change over and of course if you think about it the cost of doing this for a landlord would be prohibitive.

If this was true than why not have a gas inspection on every tenant change-over rather than an annual certificate?

The new electrical safety rules requires an inspection of the electrical circuits for safe operation to the tenant user. If this requires a replacement circuit board I have not seen that actually put down in writing anywhere as a legal requirement of the inspection process. Is it an interpretation of the electrical installer/tester suggesting replacement?

At least the gas rules are clear and precise on what is required which is more than I can say about the Electrical Safety requirements not forgetting at this present time there is no legal requirement for any private landlord to have an electrical saftey certificate in place and indeed I do not have any at this time.

It is my decision to go ahead and replace my 25 year old fuseboards as a matter of continuous upgrade programs of my properties in the current tax year.......nobody has issued an enforcement notice on me.

[Carryon Regardless]

As Chestnut the Electrical Regs aren't a law. They are a standard to install to but not a requirement to upgrade to, well as I say I haven't done the latest Inspection and Testing course but it wasn't an expectation previously.

For us LL's the danger is that a legislation, or even local standard is introduced that requires us to have our properties to the latest regs. That is the chap behind the desk cites the latest regs as a dictated requirement for us to attain. In this day no one tells him he is OTT and the finished work will get him (and his team) a nice pat on the back and we pay.

So far no one has suggested that we will be required to test at each change of occupant but if the regs are used as our required standard that's where we will be. I would imagine that in practice any Council inspector would only be looking for evidence of an elec inspection in the last 10 years, although an inspection done a few years ago to 16th edition may be out of date.

If there is an incident resulting in a HSE enquiry, and not necessarily an electrical incident, then no 17th inspection for the present T may have us held to account.

So far all conjecture but we live in a pathetic PC, knee jerk, jobs worth, attack the LL society. And are controlled by Mein Merkel over yonder.

A small point, what was the advantage to UK for us to standardise our wiring colours with Europe ?

There are now many, many properties that have dual coloured wiring into junction boxes, consumer units and the like. Now, using a little warning label, we connect red to brown and blue to black. In the old 3 phase the blue was a nice 240volt.

The saying "he connected red to red, yellow to yellow and blue blew his frickin head off" is now more likely. But they know best.

[Guest caravanj]

Actually there's no such thing as a 17th Edition consumer unit but new consumer units do comply with the 17th Edition regulations which is not the same thing.

It is, therefore, quite acceptable to upgrade an exisiting consumer unit to make it comply with the requirements of the 17th Edition regulations.

A simple & cost effective way is to retain the existing consumer unit, remove the RCD where there is one & replace all the MCB's with RCBO's. This arrangement will comply fully with the requirements of the 17th Edition & will take a fraction of the time it would take to change the whole consumer unit.

A standard main switch disconnector controlled consumer unit with RCBOs for every outgoing circuit instead of the usual MCBs, will comply with the 17th Edition regulations because all circuits will have both earth fault & overload protection via the RCBO and a fault on any one circuit will not impact on other circuits, and so all aspects of the regulations are satisfied.

Where I live there's a requirement for an annual electrical check for student accomodation but not on each change of residency & the cost is reflected in the rental yields which are higher than from a standard let.

Don't get suckered by sparkies who are trying to drum up business.

As a now retired managing director of an electrical installation company & someone who has done explosion-proof electrical installations in the chemical industry, I find it highly amusing that I'm not allowed to fit a socket in a kitchen. LOL!!

[Melboy]

. I would imagine that in practice any Council inspector would only be looking for evidence of an elec inspection in the last 10 years, although an inspection done a few years ago to 16th edition may be out of date.

If there is an incident resulting in a HSE enquiry, and not necessarily an electrical incident, then no 17th inspection for the present T may have us held to account.

But that is exactly my point COR. There is no legal requirement at present for me as private landlord to do anything. The house was built 1990 to the current standards of the time and regulations for electrical installations.

The house has not been touched or messed around with electrically speaking.

So if a tenant was injured who would he sue? The Landlord who has done absolutely nothing wrong or the original installer?

As I understand it building regulations cannot be applied retrospectively and that would include any electrical work done at the year 1990.

[Carryon Regardless]

Mel you've hit on a point I use to demonstrate that all these efforts to impose extra responsibilities, generally on the visible target with equity, are OTT.

We, and all, should take reasonable steps to prevent harm to others, the duty of care sort of thing. But accidents do happen and, as is generally pushed at us, aren't always 'reasonably' preventable. Neglect and such should be punishable but those incidents that cause loss are covered by insurance, not always but usually.

The continual legislation that attempt to make our properties cotton wool safe can only go so far, all things as much as they try, can't be covered and bad situations will happen. While these things shouldn't be accepted with a "so what" attitude why not let the disadvantaged party claim from our insurance it's what it's there for. Maybe the legislators could prioritise their efforts better and stop threatening to hang the not guilty, that is until their new and largely unknown legislation makes them guilty of something that confuses many intelligent people with relevant expertise.

Just a biased opinion and always open to amendment .

[Guest caravanj]

But that is exactly my point COR. There is no legal requirement at present for me as private landlord to do anything. The house was built 1990 to the current standards of the time and regulations for electrical installations.

The house has not been touched or messed around with electrically speaking.

So if a tenant was injured who would he sue? The Landlord who has done absolutely nothing wrong or the original installer?

As I understand it building regulations cannot be applied retrospectively and that would include any electrical work done at the year 1990.

The change from 16th Edition to 17th Edition allows for some changes in the test valuations e.g.insulation resistance values have been changed. Now, at least 1 Megohm is required for 230/400 VAC systems but a system that passed under the old insulation resistance values should also pass under the new values.

On a more bizzarre note, the 17th Edition no longer requires cross-bonding in a bathroom & even allows a socket in a bathroom!!

As per my previous post, the 17th Edition puts a lot of imprtance on the automatic disconnection of a circuit when a fault occurs and an RCBO will comply with all the requirements of the 17th Edition.