Notice to quit justifyable?

[Lolainuk]

Hi There,

I wanted to have opinion of other landlords before I make my decision to get rid of one of my lodger.

Background information: I have a 3 bedroom house, with 2 lodger and myself. but due to work commitment I'm away fairly often. The lodgers are one nice chap and a girl.

I have problem with the girl. She moved in around mid July. In her lodger agreement, she signed to abide rules such as cleaning after use and notifying me for overnight guests.

I went on holiday for 2 weeks in August and when I came back, I found out that she had 3 friends coming for the weekend, and therefore they were overnight guests. I only found out because one of them wrote on my fridge, so I enquired to my lodgers who it was. But if I hadn't asked, I probably wouldn't have found out. - 1st issue

She asked me if her boyfriend could come over a weekend, I said yes, and now each time he comes she doesn't inform me. But tjis one time, I came back when he was around and I found the loo in such a state... I was horrified, but as I didn't want to embarrass her in front of her fella, I didn't say anything. - 2nd issue.

She asked me if she could have 'couple of friends around for a little party' in the next two weeks. As I was leaving (she always asks me stuff when I'm in a rush or leaving...) and I've heard couple of friends, I said ok. I left for a weekend abroad, and my surprise was jaw-dropping when I found out on a popular networking site that she created an event before even asking me with 50+ people invited + their partners, with the address visible and all that on the public domain for everyone's eyes to see. I went mental, and I told her in a diplomatic way that it must have been a misunderstanding as I thought it was just 2 or 3 friends, but for 50, and with the address on display, she was going to have to cancel the party. To which she replied that no it's ok, in fact it's only 12 people and she removed the event from the site. I said that I still wasn't happy while the whole situation because she clearly misled me. But she stroke back, saying that it was not her intention and they are respectful people so she was still having her party. Anyway I was fuming... is it just me or you don't crash parties at someone else's house? As for other lodger or myself, we never have any guest so it doesn't seem fair that she's the last one to move in and dictate her rule in the house. Anyway, on top of that, couple of days later she asked me if 4 of her friends can come to sleep over, to which I said that no problem, her 4 friends sleeping over is a much acceptable situation that her 12+ people party. But then it turned out that the 4 were on top of the '12ish' people party I've asked her to cancel, so I stayed firm, but polite and just standing to my ground, explaining why she couldn't have her party, presenting my argument, I kept my cool, when she was clearly shouting at me and behaving like a stropy teenager who's making a tantrum. - 3rd issue

Since that, she's avoinding me and sulking like a kid. And she doesn't clean at all now, and I was supposed to be away over the weekend and I'm not 100% convinced she has cancelled her party.

So I wanted to give her the notice to quit. The thing is I'm away so often and I don't really want people that I can't trust in my house, crashing parties when I'm away and leaving all the mess for me to clean.

I wrote that post to have another opinion, do you think I'm too harsh? do you think I should have let her having the party? or do you agree I should ask her to find another house to live in?

Thanks for your advice

[Richlist]

Lodgers have little or no rights.

I think most people reading your post would ask the question.....what took you so long to come to the conclusion that the lady needs to leave. Don't be soft or sympathetic, don't try and let her persaude you to see her point of view. Just tell her to go.

[Melboy]

For heavens sake what are you waiting for? Lodger's have no rights as such and she is just taking you for a easy fool....imo that is.

Get rid of her NOW!

Mel.

[Mortitia]

This girl is not a lodger SHE IS AN OPPORTUNIST!! Get rid now and save yourself loads of grief.

When getting next lodger look for a 'bookish' type and present rules about staying guests and partying on your premises.

Mortitia

[Lolainuk]

thank you for your replies, I will give her her notice now. I know i was too soft with her, but she's a bit of a bully, like she won't say 'can i have few friends around?' she says 'oh I'm having few friends around by the way, just to let you know' and it was partially my fault as i don't really like confrontation and argument, I've let her h=get away with too many things...

it is the first year I'm having lodgers, so I'm still learning.

But thank you all for your feedback, it is really valuable for me.

[Carryon Regardless]

Be ready for the backlash, these types more often turn nasty when you remove what they perceive to be rightfully theirs.

Have replacement locks ready to fit at speed.

You have no legal requirement to give notice, you can 'legally' prevent her re entry as you desire 'without notice'.

The bigger problem is not being able to evict her when she is in the property, that takes court action.

Consider what type of associates will possibly defend her cause.

She's an abuser BE PREPARED.

[julieparnell]

I have had a lodger like that before!

You are justfied in asking her to leave.

I feel for you, cos people like that can make your life a misery!

Hi There,

I wanted to have opinion of other landlords before I make my decision to get rid of one of my lodger.

Background information: I have a 3 bedroom house, with 2 lodger and myself. but due to work commitment I'm away fairly often. The lodgers are one nice chap and a girl.

I have problem with the girl. She moved in around mid July. In her lodger agreement, she signed to abide rules such as cleaning after use and notifying me for overnight guests.

I went on holiday for 2 weeks in August and when I came back, I found out that she had 3 friends coming for the weekend, and therefore they were overnight guests. I only found out because one of them wrote on my fridge, so I enquired to my lodgers who it was. But if I hadn't asked, I probably wouldn't have found out. - 1st issue

She asked me if her boyfriend could come over a weekend, I said yes, and now each time he comes she doesn't inform me. But tjis one time, I came back when he was around and I found the loo in such a state... I was horrified, but as I didn't want to embarrass her in front of her fella, I didn't say anything. - 2nd issue.

She asked me if she could have 'couple of friends around for a little party' in the next two weeks. As I was leaving (she always asks me stuff when I'm in a rush or leaving...) and I've heard couple of friends, I said ok. I left for a weekend abroad, and my surprise was jaw-dropping when I found out on a popular networking site that she created an event before even asking me with 50+ people invited + their partners, with the address visible and all that on the public domain for everyone's eyes to see. I went mental, and I told her in a diplomatic way that it must have been a misunderstanding as I thought it was just 2 or 3 friends, but for 50, and with the address on display, she was going to have to cancel the party. To which she replied that no it's ok, in fact it's only 12 people and she removed the event from the site. I said that I still wasn't happy while the whole situation because she clearly misled me. But she stroke back, saying that it was not her intention and they are respectful people so she was still having her party. Anyway I was fuming... is it just me or you don't crash parties at someone else's house? As for other lodger or myself, we never have any guest so it doesn't seem fair that she's the last one to move in and dictate her rule in the house. Anyway, on top of that, couple of days later she asked me if 4 of her friends can come to sleep over, to which I said that no problem, her 4 friends sleeping over is a much acceptable situation that her 12+ people party. But then it turned out that the 4 were on top of the '12ish' people party I've asked her to cancel, so I stayed firm, but polite and just standing to my ground, explaining why she couldn't have her party, presenting my argument, I kept my cool, when she was clearly shouting at me and behaving like a stropy teenager who's making a tantrum. - 3rd issue

Since that, she's avoinding me and sulking like a kid. And she doesn't clean at all now, and I was supposed to be away over the weekend and I'm not 100% convinced she has cancelled her party.

So I wanted to give her the notice to quit. The thing is I'm away so often and I don't really want people that I can't trust in my house, crashing parties when I'm away and leaving all the mess for me to clean.

I wrote that post to have another opinion, do you think I'm too harsh? do you think I should have let her having the party? or do you agree I should ask her to find another house to live in?

Thanks for your advice

[Lolainuk]

Thank you all for your replies,

I gave her the notice and it didn't go down that well...

But she said she'll leave. She even asked me to be a reference... isn't it weird??

I told her to remove her shoes when she's walking on carpet with her muddy boots, and she snapped back saying, now she's on her notice she doesn't give a *bip* ...

I told her that it would be a pity for her because I would use her deposit to bring my house back to the standard it was before she moved in (i.e hire a maid or carpet cleaner).

Am I allowed to do so?

Also fpr the reference business, would you recommend me to lie to another landlord to get rid of her quicker, or just warn others that she's an abuser?

Many Thanks for your help,

Lola

[Carryon Regardless]

I told her to remove her shoes when she's walking on carpet with her muddy boots, and she snapped back saying, now she's on her notice she doesn't give a *bip* ...

Those new locks would be in by now if it were me.

A month is a long time to have to deal with such cr*p, especially since lodgers don't legally require notice, in fact they have little rights.

Just kill her,.......er maybe there's something in the 'uman rights' about that though, better check first.

[Caffiend]

Those new locks would be in by now if it were me.

A month is a long time to have to deal with such cr*p, especially since lodgers don't legally require notice, in fact they have little rights.

^That.

This woman is taking the mick, frankly. Legally speaking, she is an 'excluded occupier' (see http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/renting_and_leasehold/private_tenancies/excluded_occupiers).

Have you considered that your good lodger may get fed up and move out if you don't deal with this one?

[Lolainuk]

I will change the locks this weekend, I just need to do it while she's out of the property, right?

Then I just leave her stuff outside, but what if they're stolen? it is my responsability?

What if she tries to come in the house? Can i call the polic for trespassing?

I'm just exhausted to fight with her all the time in my own house. And her paiement even hasn't gone through for this month, so there is no chance she's staying here for free after her horrible behaviour. I hate being nasty, but I've tried nice and didn't work...

It's just a shame that we're not allowed to use the force to evict them!

Thanks all for your halp and advice, I really appreciate it :0)

[Carryon Regardless]

If you bar her from the house she has no right to access, even for her own belongings.

Any attempt to force entry and she 'should' be arrested.

If her goods are outside and stolen you could be open to a claim, I would keep them safe.

Collection could be arranged, at the front door, at a mutually agreeable time.

Maybe you will be unable to accommodate until rents have been paid.

She could make claim for the value of her goods, but you could counter claim for the rent. In any case it's her problem.

Edit: Don't forget you could do with her forwarding address, for the mail of course, but really as a deterant against those broken windows.

[Caffiend]

I'm not a lawyer, but this much I know: Don't leave her stuff outside - even if it wasn't illegal, she could quite easily make a claim and you'd be on rocky ground if the stuff was damaged by weather or stolen (and she could claim theft even if it wasn't - how would you know if it had gone?). Unfortunately, you also cannot hold on to her stuff in lieu of unpaid rent. You might want to take a look at the law on Abandonment, which mostly applies to ASTs, but the law around responsibility towards the tenant's goods/items left behind applies to lodger landlords too. (Ignore the bits around rights of access, those don't apply to excluded occupiers.)

You are also legally obliged to allow her to collect her stuff, at a mutually agreed time - as in, she stands on the doorstep and you take it out to her (you don't have to let her in). Have a friend standing by, or if you think she's really likely to act up, call the local police station (not on a 999, the regular number), explain the situation, and ask if they can send someone round at the time she's supposed to be there to collect her stuff. If she tries to force entry, call 999.

There is nothing to stop you boxing her stuff up/moving it out of the room though - but take a careful inventory if you have to do this.

Hopefully it won't come to this, but if she fails to turn up/take her things away at the mutually agreed time or doesn't contact you at all, then you need to write to her and post it with signed for delivery (and keep the tracking info, which you can get from the Royal Mail website) and tell her that if she does not collect her goods by [X date], then you will dispose of them. You do need to give a reasonable time-span for this - I'd suggest at least a month, 8 weeks would probably be safer. In the meantime, you still have to store her belongings securely. If you do end up having to dispose of them and any of it is worth anything, you are legally obliged to get best possible prices for it (hello e-bay) and I'd recommend keeping records of everything - and you would have to return the money to her (again, recorded/signed for delivery). But you can make deductions for unpaid rent from any money you get from selling her belongings and a small amount for storage (check self-store type sites for an idea of how much you could charge for this) - of course, keep a careful note of what you've deducted and why and ensure she gets a copy.

[Caffiend]

Oops, double post - sorry

[Lolainuk]

With the festive season I forgot to give you an update!

She's gone!! ha ha ha!! Gone!!! I'm so relieved!

I'm still having to deal with her, because she left, she didn't clean her bedding, carpet was stained and full of mud and she managed to make 2 holes in the walls.

So, I'm using her deposit to cover all the repairs needed to put the room back to what it was before she moved in. To be fair, I could have done that myself, I don't mind a bit of DIY and decorating, but I just didn't want to do her any favour! and certainly didn't want to spend anymore time cleaning after her mess!

she's obviously not happy about that, but I don't care. She even tried to bully me by turning up at me house and telling me that I should let her the chance to repair it herself. To which I said no, she had 4- week notice which was plenty to do any repair before she left.

I told her that if she keeps turning up to my house I will call the police for harassment. I just said it to scare her, but am i allowed to do that?

anyway, Thank you all for your precious advice and support, I finally got rid of her and her bullying tactics!

Next lodger... erm... I'll wait couple of months to recover from that last one from Hell...

[Carryon Regardless]

Well done and a Happier New Year.

If she haresses involve the Police, that's what they're there for, in theory. If we harass the Police get involved fast enough.

[Caffiend]

Next lodger... erm... I'll wait couple of months to recover from that last one from Hell...

If you get expectations clear up front it's so much easier to address problems if those expectations aren't met. I think I'm a pretty laid back landlady - it may be my house, but while a lodger is living there, it's also their home, so I don't have many 'rules' as such - but apart from the obvious about paying rent on time my expectations are:

1. Lodgers will clean up their own mess, but I'll do the general housework (e.g. lodger to chuck bleach down the loo if necessary, although I'll clean the whole thing on a regular basis as I'd have to do it anyway; lodger to mop up kitchen spills/wash up their pots, but hey, everyone drops the odd crumb on the floor, I'll get the hoovering weekly as I'd have to do it anyway - etc)

2. One guest welcome to stay over as long as it isn't so often/so long that it feels like they have also moved in (my pain barrier would probably be 2-3 nights/week on average, tops). Any more than one person/extended stays (e.g. long-distance relationship where they see each other seldom but for several weeks at a time) by agreement only.

3. I'll buy all the cleaning stuff (see 1), but please don't get OCD about shared stuff like loo roll/milk - as long as it isn't "always" one of us buying it, life is just too damn short to fuss about it

4. Make sure the property is secure (doors double locked, windows locked if left on 'vent' etc) if you leave the house after me (i.e. no-one in).

5. Switch stuff off if you're not using it! (one of my lodgers who was otherwise lovely was a bugger for having TV on in living room, computer in his bedroom, radio in the shed and lights all over the place - but as he knew I didn't like it, was always amiable about being nagged about only being able to be in one of those places at a time ... - and he did get better!)

6. I will respect privacy, but reserve the absolute right of access to lodger's room (although this is rarely taken - usually to close forgotten windows or extract cat who has somehow snuck in there (prefer them to stay out of lodger's room))

7. If you're in late/out early, then 'normal' activity is fine (shower, TV on low etc) but don't make a racket.

8. No smoking in the house (garden is fine).

9. Don't kick the cats

This is pretty much the stuff I get up front at the initial conversation - and although I know I've been very very lucky with all my lodgers so far, these have worked very well. If a potential lodger I talked to didn't 'ring true' in agreeing to these principles (and a few prospects haven't!) then - NEXT.

[Carryon Regardless]

Some good suggestions there.

I don't have involvement with lodgers, apart from kids returning to the nest and there are house rules for them not far off your suggestions.

A thought re tenants guests, if it was understood that any guest incurs an overnight charge, w/o this inferring a right to sublet, it might deter abuse. A blind eye can be used if the event is occasional anyway. After all any house traffic causes wear and tear.

[Lolainuk]

Yes, the rules make perfect sense, BUT... Bad lodgers are often good liars...

Now I tend to interview lodgers with a friend, or the other lodger if he's around, or the boyfriend, just to have a second view. I'm not a lie detector and people always try to seem 'normal' during the interview, like on their best behaviour. It's only when they got the keys in hand that the nightmare starts...

I've learnt how to read into 'reference'. When they put a family member or friend, it is obvious because they beef the candidate so up that it becomes suspicious. Then previous unhappy landlords big them up too to get rid of them quicker... My lodger from Hell 'dirty, stealy, party crasher' was described as 'very respectuous, down to earth and kept herself to herself lovely girl... ahem... thanks for the tips... NOT!

I've become so suspicious now, that I do more than one interview, ask for at least 2 references from different sources (if one is family menber, the other has to be neutral sort of thing) and ask them some extensive questions about sharing house, manners, way of life sort of things...

The little surprise I had and I'm glad I took my time to restitute the rest of the 'Lodger from hell's deposit, is for someone who didn't use the phone at all, she spent £40 over the 6 months she was there... it was specified in the agreement that phone bills were not included in the rent. ha! another deposit deduction to go with the carpet cleaning, plasterer/painter and laundry.

[Mortitia]

Well done........1st step to not being a doormat all your life!

Yes you can call the police if she is harassing you. They will probably turn up to stop a 'public order offence'.

Good luck with your next choice of lodger..............it is a steep learning curve.

Mortitia

[Caffiend]

BUT... Bad lodgers are often good liars...

Bad *people* are often good liars. In some funny ways, looking for housemates online is not dissimilar from internet dating!

Good idea to have a second person there - 'other lodger' not an option for me as I only have the one spare room, but it's probably also quite sensible to check that a good lodger you wouldn't want to lose will be able to get along with or at least tolerate whoever comes in (always LL's choice of course, but who wants the stress of lodgers who row, or won't speak to each other!)

I'm not sure that a formal interview or 2 is necessarily the best thing - it immediately puts people on guard and on their best behaviour. I want them relaxed - and off guard enough that any inconsistencies or claims that don't quite hang together will be easier for me to spot. I guess I do do 2 interviews, but the first is a telephone one. Anyone who seems surprised that I want to know a little bit about them doesn't get to come see the place - I'm not running a hotel, it's my home.

I check employment status, but frankly, I don't think references are worth a damn - no-one in their right minds is going to give you the details of someone who won't give them a good reference. It's all very well to say 'last LL but one' (no vested interest in getting rid of them, they already have!) - but I'd have no way of checking that the person I was speaking to really WAS the last LL but one and not a mate that they had set up. From that point of view it's easier for live out landlords - and rightly so, as they have to jump through so more many hoops to get rid of bad 'uns.

I'm sure a lot of people would say I'm foolish just mostly going with my gut. It's certainly not infallible, but there's little things ... it's about attitude I guess. A lodger might be paying for the room, but they are doing me no favours - and nor am I by providing them with that space to live: it's an equal relationship. Apart from obvious big no-nos ('I'd like to bring my 3 Alsatians'/'I have my 9 children to stay every other weekend, it's OK, they can doss on the floor' type of thing) I look for:

• do written profiles/communications look like the person has made an effort? I'm not talking about perfect spelling, but people who just leave the default profiles and don't give any more information in their first e-mail to me are likely to be a "no". Fair enough that someone might not want to risk being thrown out by an offended LL (similar to not wanting your boss to know you're job hunting!) - but if there's no profile, I think it's reasonable to expect private communications to be a bit more informative. I've put a reasonable level of detail on my profile, so "show me yours". Having said that, too much *personal* information is likely to lead to a 'no'. This is a business relationship, public profiles which describe your appearance are just weird (it's not dating, even if the getting-to-know-you process sometimes seems spookily similar!) - if there's a photo, that's nice (although I'm not bothered either way), but "I'm blonde, blue-eyed ..." - I don't care! Public profiles which say "I'm looking for a room desperately/because of a bad breakup/similar" are also a turn-off - desperate people are more likely to lie, and your personal life is none of my business at this stage (although if you want to move in, I'd quite like to know if you're likely to want to have partner visiting etc.)
• If they phone first, what do they say *second* (first is almost always 'is the room still available?') If the second is "when can I move in?" the answer is quite highly likely to be a politer version of 'when hell freezes over'
• if they visit: I do the 10p tour first - show them the room/shared facilities - before we even really get into conversation, usually with a comment along the lines of 'well, let's see whether you like it before we talk about the other stuff' - and watch the reaction as they look round. Then we talk lifesyle, expectations - on both sides, to be fair, etc.

Talking about big no-nos, the funniest ad I saw was a "lady" who wanted somewhere quiet, with off-street parking, so she could work from home in an environment where she and her "clients" would have some privacy. No, I didn't express an interest ... bizarrely, someone THAT honest would probably make quite a good lodger, but I'd've had problems with complete strangers having access to my house!