Extrenely distressing situation re evicting tenants

[Emmaizzy]

Please bear with me as this is a complicated situation but one where I desparately need the benefit of some superior knowledge.

We live abroad for work and have a house in the UK which we rented out in 2003 to a couple. The same tenants were renting the property until October last year when the wife approached us to say that she was now on her own and wanted the tenancy in her name. We signed a new lease which expired yesterday (October 31st 2011).

In August 2011 she told us she could no longer afford the rent on her own (she had be struggling to pay the rent and it was often late) and said she would be moving out in October and that she was going to the local authority for housing help. The rent is payable on the 1st of each month so on about 27th August we served a Section 21 Notice on her for return of the property when the lease ended on 31st October.

Then in mid September the estranged husband contacted us and asked if he could take over the tenancy on November 1st when the wife moved out. As we had no reason to think there would be a problem we said yes and he signed a new lease to start on November 1st - today.

Then on October 4th he called me to state that he would not be able to take on the property after all as he was expecting to receive support from housing benefit for the rent but this had been denied.

We subsequently advertised the property the same day in the local paper for new tenants.

We then made arrangements to view the property (NB: prior to this my husband's father had been regularly visiting the property and there had never been any issues in terms of maintenance or how the property was being looked after - my father in law died suddenly from cancer and my mother in law was extremely distraught after 50 years of marriage and so for the last 18 months no visits have been made). My mother in law and sister in law went to view the property four days after the husband stated that he no longer wanted to move in on October 8th and were shocked at the condition of the property. Carpets removed, broken fixture and fittings, a leak which had caused water damage to ceiling etc etc. The husband promised to rectify the damage before any new tenants moved in.

As the advert had already gone in we had received a phone call from a prospective tenant on the morning of the 8th October. I called this person back after my MIL visit and told him the house was in a terrible state and not ready for letting after all. The prospective tenant said he still wanted to view so we made an arrangement with the ex husband as he was going to be at the property making good. He motiviation for making the property good was to get back the deposit from from the previous lease in both names.

On the Saturday October 10th my MIL, SIL and prospective tenant went to the property and there was no answer. As we had made arrangements more than 24 hours in advance my MIL entered the property. It turns out the father was not there and there were two children alone in the property. The eldest son who is 17 said he was calling his dad so every one left and waited outside the property. When the father returned he went ballastic and the situation was so bad that the police were called. The police subsequently advised us not to to anywhere near the father without the police as his behaviour was so bad. As he had promised to make good the damage this meant not going near the property.

Consequently on the Monday October 12th I called the tenant (mother) at work and explained that we felt it was better if we stopped viewings etc and would just take the property back when she moved out on the 31st, to which she agreed.

Over the weekend (October 29th) my husband called the tenant to ask her to leave the keys in the property when she moved out on the Monday. She informed us that she had been back to housing and be told that unless we evict her she will be making herself homeless. I called the housing service and they advised me this was true.

So we now have to evict her.

However, the husband is asking why we haven't served him with a Section 21 Notice. As he doesn't live there and the tenant has repeatedly stated that he doesn't live there why would we need to? He acknowledged he wasn't living there himself when he asked for the tenancy in his name - do you think he is just trying it on?

Further can he have any claim in the new lease? He himself stated that he no longer wanted to honour it both to myself, my husband and my mil and sil.

When the new lease was signed in October the deposit from the old tenancy was still in our possesion - there was no discussion about who it belonged to and we didn't raise it. We had a suspicion that there were problems between the spouses and didn't want to get involved in returning it to one party or another so we did nothing waiting for them to contact us about it but they never did. Consequenlty no deposit officially exists for the new lease in wife's name or has been paid into a deposit scheme. Will this prevent us from going forward with a Section 21 eviction - the wife acknowledges that no deposit was ever paid for the new lease in her name and stated that she didn't expect to get the old deposit back due to the damage to the house.

I want to change the locks on the property to ensure he does not enter it - she of course will get a key. However she has stated that if we do this he will go mad and I am genuinely scared of him and so is the wife. We are also worried that he may go to my MIL's house as he behaviour seems very eratic - the tenant has stated that he had taken all the passports for her and the children.

The wife called from a phonebox yesterday stating that the husband had forced her to write a letter to us about the incident with my MIL - I have no idea what this will say.

The whole situation is extremely distressing for us. We have been caught up in this awful dispute. I consulted a solicitor yesterday who told me to issue a section 21 notice on the husband under the tenancy in his name but my understanding is you cannot do this until they have been in the tenancy for six months and he has already stated he doesn't want the tenancy. She disagreed with me but then subsequently admitted she was wrong. I cannot afford to pay for incorrect advice.

Is there anyone who can help me - please!

Thanks

Emma

[Chestnut]

Emma,

This does look a bit desparate and muddling for you.

I'm no expert but whilst you await better advice, let's try to separate the situation of each part of this tenant family.

Mother - needs the eviction that you have started - As on HB, Council will most probably advise her to stay until actually eviction date. You have to let it take its course.

Father - Signed up to AST from 1st November and then said he couldn't take it up. Do you have his withdrawal in writing? If not, he is committed to you for six months payments - a point you can negotiate on.

Children - Not sure about upper age limit but one or both parents are responsible for them, at least as a guarantor.

I don't think you are permitted go near the property or change locks or anything until you are clear about position of each party above.

Now call on a solicitor! It's probably cheaper in long run. Keep the agent informed but don't expect much help. Good luck!

[Grampa]

Just to clarify a couple of points:

1 The wife has a current tenancy in her name only and is living in the property?

2 The husband has got a resently signed tenancy in his name but he hasnt moved in and doesnt want to take up the tenancy? If so I think first you need to get in writing from the husband that he surrenders that tenancy also try to get off him any signed tenancy at the same time.

Then go through the normal eviction process on the wife.

Regarding the serving of s21 notices you can serve one anytime after the tenancy has started as long as any deposit has been proctected correctly and at least 2 months notice given which cant be earlier than the last day of the fixed term of a contract.

The 6 month rule you are refering to means you cant be given a possession order earlier than that.

[Emmaizzy]

Thanks for your replies.

The Tenancy is in the wife's name only and the husband is not resident at the property but he does have access to visit and look after the children when she is not there - this is a private agreement between the couple and nothing we have agreed to or had knowledge of until the last month.

The husband's new tenancy was not cancelled in writing as we didn't think there was going to be this big mess. If I write to him now it will have to be extremely carefully worded to ensure that it reflects that the tenancy was cancelled by his request and not imply in anyway we are discussing whether it was cancelled. Further I have no idea where he is living to send him this letter and his wife is so scared of him she wouldn't want to pass it on and I don't think we could put her in that position. I also think that if we asked him to write that he no longer wanted the tenancy he is savvy enough to realise that could be interpretated that one does exist and he could move into the property and we would have evict him under Section 8 which would take a long time.

There was no deposit paid for the new tenancy.

The wife is happy to have the locks changed but she is scared to do so.

I feel so awful - it so wrong that people can behave this way.

[Richlist]

If I were in your position I would employ the following company to deal with everything. They have fixed charges, are very experienced, know what to do and will sort it out far quicker than you could ever hope to do yourself:

http://www.landlordaction.co.uk/site.php

[Grampa]

Dont use high street solicitor unless they specialise in housing law. IMPORTANT

[jbarnett]

Yes - it sounds an extremely sticky situation and housing law (especially regarding landlord - tenant disputes) can be rather complicated.

The only real advice is to go directly to a legal advisor to determine what you can legally do as there will almost certainly be a contractual issue - especially regarding the new lease as no deposit was actually paid.

Unfortunately it sounds like whoever is giving you legal advice at the moment doesn't know housing law that well... my advice - get a new solicitor.

[Carryon Regardless]

Unless things have changed with councils, and they may have.

Her showing the S21 to local housing means she is homeless (from Oct 31st), not by her choice, they have cause to house her. Possibly not as nice as she would desire though.

In any event go for repossession. At court (in a few weeks) if it gets that far, you should aim for a 14 day order and hope.

In general you talk of understandings that aren't supported by paperwork.

Example- I feel you need written clarification from her to agree that the earlier deposit has been forfeit. This should prevent either (or some agency on their behalf) claiming the deposit has been transferred to a recent tenancy, thereby preventing any S21 progress.

He has surrendered his tenancy but as you recognise demonstrating this is the problem.

It's the paperwork that would give you security from him claiming otherwise.

6 weeks ago you created a tenancy with him ??

He signed, does he have a copy of the AST that carries your signature ?

Does the AST state that monies, such as deposit and up front rent need be paid ?

You haven't given keys and granted him access so I'm looking for reason to show the tenancy never actually commenced.

In truth I'm struggling here as if he desires I feel he is a T, and until 'out' so is she - oops.

Blag it.

Have the locks changed with her consent, document this time.

Assuming he attempts a break in, or becomes unruly, involve the Police for an arrest.

Stand firm that he is not T.

If he has sympathy as T it's gonna get messy and expensive with great stress anyway. Little to lose.

Be prepared to pay the git off, but not till she's out or he'll be back in anyway.

Edit:

Some years ago I had been set up for an illegal eviction situation by an absconded T.

Seeing his game I offered to meet him to return the deposit (most certainly not due).

"Sign this and I can close out the paperwork on this one". He did, sorted.

Consider buying his signature then he has no argument, also this way a returned deposit leaves the S21 route open.

[Emmaizzy]

Unless things have changed with councils, and they may have.

Her showing the S21 to local housing means she is homeless (from Oct 31st), not by her choice, they have cause to house her. Possibly not as nice as she would desire though.

In any event go for repossession. At court (in a few weeks) if it gets that far, you should aim for a 14 day order and hope.

In general you talk of understandings that aren't supported by paperwork.

Example- I feel you need written clarification from her to agree that the earlier deposit has been forfeit. This should prevent either (or some agency on their behalf) claiming the deposit has been transferred to a recent tenancy, thereby preventing any S21 progress.

He has surrendered his tenancy but as you recognise demonstrating this is the problem.

It's the paperwork that would give you security from him claiming otherwise.

6 weeks ago you created a tenancy with him ??

He signed, does he have a copy of the AST that carries your signature ?

Does the AST state that monies, such as deposit and up front rent need be paid ?

You haven't given keys and granted him access so I'm looking for reason to show the tenancy never actually commenced.

In truth I'm struggling here as if he desires I feel he is a T, and until 'out' so is she - oops.

Blag it.

Have the locks changed with her consent, document this time.

Assuming he attempts a break in, or becomes unruly, involve the Police for an arrest.

Stand firm that he is not T.

If he has sympathy as T it's gonna get messy and expensive with great stress anyway. Little to lose.

Be prepared to pay the git off, but not till she's out or he'll be back in anyway.

Edit:

Some years ago I had been set up for an illegal eviction situation by an absconded T.

Seeing his game I offered to meet him to return the deposit (most certainly not due).

"Sign this and I can close out the paperwork on this one". He did, sorted.

Consider buying his signature then he has no argument, also this way a returned deposit leaves the S21 route open.

[Emmaizzy]

Thank you all so much for contributing to this thread it's such a relief to have somewhere to discuss this.

I am going to send the tenant an email stating that as discussed we have asked her to leave and she has refused and that will necessitate us having to evict her under the Section 21 Notice which she acknowledges she received. In addition in that no deposit was paid in relation to the tenancy.

I am hoping that she will respond my email stating this to be true - which it is.

I am also hoping that as she actually wants to be evicted she won't be contesting the eviction otherwise she will still be in the house and not getting the support she feels she is entitled to from the local housing association.

I've stopped worrying about the other guy for now - he hasn't tried to move in, he has now apparently sent a letter to my husband (not received) detailing what he feels he is responsible for in terms of damage to the property and the old deposit.

Arrggghhh!!!