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PCOL review + hearing adjourned due to language issues


axil23

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Well I just did my first PCOL and am glad to say that it went well. Thought the online process to fill in the forms is quite easy and you get a date straight away. Posted the documents a week before for the Judge which he had on the day. The T didn't turn up so got the Property back subject to the usual wait of 14 days. Lets see if he moves out now or will I need to go through the next part.

I actually had two cases on the same day and the second case didn't go so well. The T claimed on the day that he didn't speak any English and with no translator on the day the judge adjourned it for 14 days but I am away that time so the next date will probably come in a month. The T has another rent free month. mad.gif

Would anyone know a way to prevent this? Surely the T knew about the court case to turn up on the day? He had documents from shelter saying that he had no place to go so shelter knows too but I was surprised that the court accepted his "lies" that he doesn't speak any English.

Any way to prevent this from happening in the future? I definitely didn't see that coming.

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Well done axil for getting the possession on the first hearing.

I think that is a good arguement for not taking non english or poor speaking english speakers as tenants. I had never considered the possibility of it causing problems at a possession hearing.

Though saying that I struggle with english at times :)

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What an absolute shambles eh!

Why is it allowed to continue like this ? There has to be a complete overhaul of the Tenant/Landlord law imo.

I for one would never allow a non English speaking tenant into my properties.....but there again I carry out all my own tenant interviews so I am not chasing the commission sale that an LA has to do.

Mel.

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We have a small number of polish tenants and a couple have had a english speaking friend to help with the tenancy set-up so they could understand the proceedure and although the tenants now speak fairly good english I guess there is no reason why if it came to a possession hearing they could say they dont understand to delay the hearing.

It is certainly somethink to consider now if they dont speak english when appling for a tenancy.

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We have a small number of polish tenants and a couple have had a english speaking friend to help with the tenancy set-up so they could understand the proceedure and although the tenants now speak fairly good english I guess there is no reason why if it came to a possession hearing they could say they dont understand to delay the hearing.

It is certainly somethink to consider now if they dont speak english when appling for a tenancy.

I hope no one takes this the wrong way and in no way do I want to sound as I am being racist but I have had no issue with the Polish whatsoever. I feel they make a attempt at speaking and working. Its the Romanian Gypsies that you need to be careful about.

BTW I was stopped this morning en-route by the same T's as yesterday who then proceeded to taunt me saying that they had got another couple of months rent free. No one said this job was gonna be easy! sad.gif

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The problem here is that the court has to balance the tenants article 6 and or 8 rights with your right to possession, as you have found out to your cost the court will usually exercise its discretion in favour of the tenant. So apart from vetting the language skills of your tenant what can you do? There is no easy answer, the best course of action would be to ask for the earliest possible adjournment date i.e 7 days, it may even be possible to get the judge to call the listing office to fix a date. At the return date you could then argue for an earlier date for possession given the fact that the tenant had already been given additional time.

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Mmmmmm interesting. I have a Polish couple as tenants - the girl is fine but hubby has a habit of breaking out in Polish sometimes as he thinks I don't understand - well I don't! Recently I called his bluff when I took my personal trainer (who is Polish but speaks fluent English) to translate the meaning of rent increase. Stopped him dead in his tracks LOL.

If I ever get in a S8 or S21 court hearing with them I would definetely take a translator.

My sympathies Axil and agree with Mel - what a shambles the courts are.

Mortitia

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The general form of Judgment or Order (n24) is just that, its the form on which the court sets out the order that it has made ie;

IT IS ORDERED THAT;

1. That this Claim be adjourned to the first open date after 14 days with a time estimate of 10 minutes

2. Costs in the case

Dated 15 June 2011

If you are using PCOL you need to click the icon highlighting the order this should then draw it down in PDF format so you can read it. If you have any trouble opening the order get in touch with the support team

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:angry: I had a section 8 hearing today for one of my landlords I prepared all the paperwork (i didnt attend) only the landlord turned up and no defence filed. So why did the bloody judge give a possession order in 28 days and not 14? I have had a number of possession hearings in front of this same judge over the years and the possession order has always been 14 days. If I was there I would have got the landlord to question it.

Bloody judges they are a law unto themselves:angry:

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The general form of Judgment or Order (n24) is just that, its the form on which the court sets out the order that it has made ie;

IT IS ORDERED THAT;

1. That this Claim be adjourned to the first open date after 14 days with a time estimate of 10 minutes

2. Costs in the case

Dated 15 June 2011

If you are using PCOL you need to click the icon highlighting the order this should then draw it down in PDF format so you can read it. If you have any trouble opening the order get in touch with the support team

Its 100% the first one as its been adjourned by 14 days. Will I get the new date online or through the post?

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You will get a listing date in the post shortly and a copy will be available online. Depending which court you have issued in, the first open date after 14 days could be anywhere between two and six weeks and it is important that you realise this.

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You will get a listing date in the post shortly and a copy will be available online. Depending which court you have issued in, the first open date after 14 days could be anywhere between two and six weeks and it is important that you realise this.

Now this is taking the piss! sad.gif Got a date for the 14th August which is 2 months out! How unfair is that. Means he gets to stay rent free for another 3 months!

Can I object to this as the judge had said in the hearing that the first available date after 14 days.

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Now this is taking the piss! sad.gif Got a date for the 14th August which is 2 months out! How unfair is that. Means he gets to stay rent free for another 3 months!

Can I object to this as the judge had said in the hearing that the first available date after 14 days.

On a seperate note his AST is now over so can I apply for section 21? But that too would take 2 months notice then so I guess that's no quicker.

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You obviously have a very busy county court here as 2 months is unusual where you have a FOD 14 days. The problem is that possession claims are block listed with each claim being only allocated a few minutes each. At the present time there is an ogoing programme of court closures and this will impact on how court time is allocated. Unless there is some reason for abridging time i.e. threat of violence or distruction of property you are going to be stuck with the date. It will be vital that you prepare for the hearing, prepare a statement setting our your position in the matter and file it at court in good time. Speak to the enforcement section and ask how long warrants are taking to enforce, you will then get an idea of how long it will take to evict. My guess is that you are going tobe stuck with your tenants until at least October.

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It will be vital that you prepare for the hearing, prepare a statement setting our your position in the matter and file it at court in good time. Speak to the enforcement section and ask how long warrants are taking to enforce, you will then get an idea of how long it will take to evict. My guess is that you are going tobe stuck with your tenants until at least October.

I was not aware that I will need to prepare anything? At the hearing last week the Judge noted in the file that all conditions for section 8 had been met and he was satisfied but could not give the eviction orders due to the T's not having a Interpreter.

So if the Judge is happy to evict based on the data available that day then what else should I send in to the court before hand? An updated Schedule?

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It will be vital that you prepare for the hearing, prepare a statement setting our your position in the matter and file it at court in good time. Speak to the enforcement section and ask how long warrants are taking to enforce, you will then get an idea of how long it will take to evict. My guess is that you are going tobe stuck with your tenants until at least October.

I was not aware that I will need to prepare anything? At the hearing last week the Judge noted in the file that all conditions for section 8 had been met and he was satisfied but could not give the eviction orders due to the T's not having a Interpreter.

So if the Judge is happy to evict based on the data available that day then what else should I send in to the court before hand? An updated Schedule?

Also there are a few other county courts near to this one. How difficult would it be to transfer the case over to there?

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I thought I had already replied to this. Each county court deals with a certain number of post codes, the county court rules require you to issue the claim in the county court area in which the property is located. For the convenience of the court matters can be transferred to other county courts, but there is no facility for you to transfer the matter. If you Google CPR 55 and its practice direction the rules are set out there.

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Axil - going back to your query on preparing a statement - it is helpful the the judge to prepare a written statement on the reasons for you wanting the section 8 (if not blindingly obvious). Detail the exact arrears by month in a table.

In your statement you can cite any damages, the fact that tenant approached you after hearing laughing that he had got 2 months rent free accommodation and any other non-compliance issues with his AST such as keeping a dog without your consent, smoking on premises etc.. Keep it all factual and not personal.

S21 - I always issue S21 at same time as S8. Yes it costs more but is the 'belt and braces' approach. If Section 8 relies mainly on the non payment of rent and is 'discretionary' whereas S21 is 'mandatory' and will guarantee an order for possession for no specific reason.

If tenant suddenly paid up enough rent to be outside the 14 days in arrears your S8 on rent arrears would fail. Unfortunately this is a common scenario but if you had done S21 8 weeks later you could apply to court for possession order. Still a long wait though.

Mortitia

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Axil - going back to your query on preparing a statement - it is helpful the the judge to prepare a written statement on the reasons for you wanting the section 8 (if not blindingly obvious). Detail the exact arrears by month in a table.

In your statement you can cite any damages, the fact that tenant approached you after hearing laughing that he had got 2 months rent free accommodation and any other non-compliance issues with his AST such as keeping a dog without your consent, smoking on premises etc.. Keep it all factual and not personal.

S21 - I always issue S21 at same time as S8. Yes it costs more but is the 'belt and braces' approach. If Section 8 relies mainly on the non payment of rent and is 'discretionary' whereas S21 is 'mandatory' and will guarantee an order for possession for no specific reason.

If tenant suddenly paid up enough rent to be outside the 14 days in arrears your S8 on rent arrears would fail. Unfortunately this is a common scenario but if you had done S21 8 weeks later you could apply to court for possession order. Still a long wait though.

Mortitia

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I thought I had already replied to this. Each county court deals with a certain number of post codes, the county court rules require you to issue the claim in the county court area in which the property is located. For the convenience of the court matters can be transferred to other county courts, but there is no facility for you to transfer the matter. If you Google CPR 55 and its practice direction the rules are set out there.

Is there anything that I can do? Anything at all? Go to the court and plead! Anything. I can't afford this anymore. The mortgage is really taking its toll. It would have been close to 8 months that he would have stayed rent free in this property.

Basically this is a brief break down -

JAN- MARCH - No rent received so I threaten with section 8 but T says he is moving out.

MARCH-APRIL - He has moved after calling me and telling me that and I assume he has moved as no one at property for a whole month but I have no way to contact him. He breaks lock and enters property at the advice of Shelter and takes possession again. Shelter threatens to take me to court for illegally evicting him. I show my full proof of what all I have done to contact him and have not changed any locks. They cool off.

April file section 8 and first hearing date was June.

Shambles I know. Learning though....

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You can use the' lack of funds to pay mortgage' in your statement to the judge. In fact when you filled out the appliction to the court for S8 it does ask if the rented property is mortgaged for this specific reason.

Other than that there is not much legally you can do apart from lobby your MP for a reform of the court system. Going back to your post of 20 th june where Shelter threaten to take you to court - would that have been such a bad thing? Not that I should recommend you to take such action but the fine would have been around £1000 but you would have posession. An interesting scenario.

Sorry but patience is necessary.

Mortitia

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