Electrical check

[kanrent]

Hi I had a complete rewire done on my property including a new fuse box and smoke alarms electrician said I don't need a check for 10 years because of the new fuse box

But now new tenants are moving in and a new AST will be provided would I now need a new electrical check

Appreciate any advice

[Richlist]

I am not an electrician only a poor, starving landlord.

* Presumably your installation included all the necessary certification which you will need when you eventually sell the property ?

* There is no legal requirement for regular electrical checks on rental property unless it's an HMO. However, landlords are required to ensure the electrical system is safe. Different people achieve this in different ways. You can get it checked by a qualified electrician or anyone else who is capable of checking the system appropriately. The confusion often arises because lettings agents insist on an electrical safety certificate before they will accept the property on their books.

* I make a point of checking my own properties once per year which includes the following :-

* Check that all trips in the main consumer unit operate as required.

* Check any fuses, including those in any appliances, are the correct rating.

* Carry out visual inspection of switch plates, sockets & wiring for cracks, splits, fraying, cuts  and other damage....replace as necessary.

* Check all 13 amp sockets with plug terster.

* Check all smoke alarms, co alarms, water heaters operate ok.

* Keep a written record of what was checked, the date and any repairs carried out.

That's it.

[Melboy]

Short answer is Yes. Changing a consumer unit and a rewire does not give you a Certificate.  It should give you an electrically safe property but ALL circuits have to be tested and recorded onto that certificate. Many fully qualified electricians do not have the correct equipment to test circuits and issue certificates to landlords would you believe.

Still not a mandatory legal requirement to have in place but that is up to you really.

[Richlist]

Melboy, your answer doesn't make sense.

The question is ....would I now need a new electrical check ?

Your answer is yes.

But my understanding is that changing a consumer unit or complete rewire is covered by part P certification requirements. The installation has to be carried out by suitably qualified people and the documentation that 'kanrent' has already been supplied with has been supplied to him to prove the installation meets all the necessary legal and safety requirements.

So, how can the answer be both 'yes' and 'its up to you really' ?

[Melboy]

Kanrent does not actually say that he has any documents or certificates. A registered Part P qualified electrician can issue the certificate of compliance for landlord's without having to inform  Council building control of the work done, in other words it is self-certification.

A non registered electrician ( ie me) can do the work but must inform building control of what has been done and an independent inspection and certificate is issued if satisfactory.

Kanrent's electrical installer cannot just leave the property and say "Your OK for 10 years."  A paid invoice only proves that work has been carried out.

[Richlist]

Ok Melboy, I now understand.

I have assumed that 'kanrent' has complied with legal requirements......perhaps he can advise us of his situation.

[kanrent]

7 hours ago, Richlist said:

Ok Melboy, I now understand.

I have assumed that 'kanrent' has complied with legal requirements......perhaps he can advise us of his situation.

Just checked the certificate 

"Domestic electrical installation certificate"

"This safety certificate is an important and valuable document which should be retained for future reference"

It has a serial number and the work has been carried out by a NICEIC domestic installer

So I guess it's legit

[Richlist]

 

All we need now is for someone to tell us that paperwork is not appropriate.

The electrical industry have a lot to answer for....they issue confusing, misleading, unclear instructions to the general public and expect everyone to understand it. It's almost easier to not comply than to meet the forever changing requirements.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been given incorrect information by qualified electrical people who think they know the answers.

I find ignoring them and using common sense works every time.

Rant over!

[Melboy]

I just cannot get my head around the fact that with a million things a landlord has to comply with to stay legal, an electrical safety certification is still not a mandatory requirement by law.

I have lost count of the number of times that this was to be the year that it does become a requirement and then it it is' kicked down the road' to a later date.

[Carryon Regardless]

NICEIC is the recognised body to oversee contractors, more credible than Part P.

It looks like an online check can be carried out,

https://www.niceic.com/find-a-contractor/certificate-check

 

[Richlist]

That's confused me even further.

Am I the only person struggling to understand what is needed to comply with the legislation ?

Seems the electrical industry needs to take a leaf out of the book for gas installation/checks.....at least it's crystal clear with them. 

 

[Carryon Regardless]

There is no legislation to cause LL's to carry out electrical inspections.

The IEE 17th Edition Wiring Regulations are the standards electrical contractors should work to. It isn't legislative but in the event the HSE attending one of our properties (due to being informed by the Police following a notifiable incident) any inspection following that incident will use the 17th Edition standards to prosecute us for negligence, or what ever.

If we have had a property inspected by an NIC contractor then it's reasonable to view that we have done all that is reasonably practicable to comply with our duty of care. But like a car MOT it doesn't mean safety is guaranteed after that inspection. We might still find ourselves defending due to an event.

The 17th Edition recommends an inspection for domestic property each ten years. Where the 17th Edition gets silly is that it also recommends an inspection prior to new occupants taking residence, for me this would often mean re inspecting after less than 12 months.

Of course an inspection where notifiable works are carried out is required. Non notifiable works we can carry out ourselves, but the list of these works isn't over lengthy but might well confuse some.

 

[Richlist]

No, I understand what you have just posted but that in itself just contributes to the confusion.

The original post specifically asked if an electrical check was required. The op then went on to give details of the installation and paperwork he had been issued with.

The op has clearly had notifiable work carried out on his property. I still don't know if what he has meets legal requirements or is sufficient when selling the property.

The only people who seem to understand it are electricians.        I don't think it could be made more confusing.

Are you able to answer the original question for the op ?

[Carryon Regardless]

The first sentence of my reply answers the op's question, and actually has been answered by others in this thread.

I cannot answer for HMO's, as I've no experience with these.

There is no legal requirement to carry out an electrical inspection on a rental property.

If an NIC electrician has provided an inspection certificate, and we are able to check that the electrician is registered with the NIC and we are able to check online as to the validity of the certificate it seems to me that there is no confusion regarding our having satisfied the duty of care requirement.

 

[Richlist]

Let me clarify my 'confusion'.

Perhaps you can help with answers.

1. Didn't know NICEIC = NIC.    It's not intuitive.

2.'There is no legislation to cause LL's to carry out electrical inspections'......agree, I posted the same BUT landlords have a duty of care to ensure electrics are safe and especially so if they have had major electrical work carried out.

3. There is no indication that the documents held by the op meet requirements.

4. We still don't know if the documentation is sufficient to sell the property.

5. There has been little or no mention of part p requirements.

[Carryon Regardless]

But there are no requirements as such. As there is no legislation, similar to the annual gas inspection, that causes us to meet any standard we only have to demonstrate a duty of care in the event of a serious mishap. And only then if the HSE decide to make an example and prosecute for negligence.

The HSE barrister is going to use the 17th Edition 'Regulations' to show the standard the property should have been wired to to be safe. There are three organisations that oversee electrical contractor competence, but the NICEIC is the better known and more widely required by local council building control as the organisation they accept when requiring certification, but not wanting to 'confuse' further it's sensible to talk of the NIC(EIC) only. It follows that if we use a contractor who is registered with the NIC and he provides an inspection certificate then we have satisfied our duty of care. To my mind in any event of mishap the contractor might then find himself defending rather than us.

Now as to selling, a new subject methinks. We have no controls to provide certificates for double glazing installations (FENSA), a 'normal' home owner has no need to prove gas safety, the same is true of electrical safety. Come a time of sale it may well be that a surveyor requires evidence of these things, then it's between solicitors/ lending sources/ and clients to negotiate. As you know often an indemnity insurance is often used to cover the risk. Or indeed to gain an electrical inspection 'pass' the property may be rewired.

As you might imagine each time the Institute of Electrical Engineers (IEE) publish a new edition of the regulations, or amendments to the existing, there is no requirement for all British properties to be brought up to those standards, that just wouldn't be realistically policed. All new works do need to be carried out to those standards and it may be that an electrician may recommend a rewire of aged, out of date electrics, and even prefer not to add to a wiring system he feels would increase risk. 

Any contractor not registered with the NIC should inform the home owner of the need for an inspection, I can only imagine that he is still liable for the quality of his work but the home owner is then made aware of his liability to satisfy 'building control'. This bit may confuse a little more, a contractor may be competent to carry out works but not qualified to carry out inspection and testing. As previous, he should make the home owner aware.

A Part P qualified electrician has a diluted qualification to carry out works in a dwelling. His ability to carry out industrial works for example won't be demonstrable from a Part P qualification, the IEE 17th Edition regs still covers this type of work though, and much more. 

https://www.niceic.com/find-a-contractor/electrics-explained/what-is-part-p

[Richlist]

Usually a landlord is the owner of the property. It's reasonable to assume he will want everything in place to ensure a smooth sale when the time comes. Having notifiable work carried out on the property without the appropriate documentation is likely to create problems at sale time.

I'm under the impression that notifiable work requires the owner to use an appropriately qualified electrician or notify their local authority building control of the work and that this is legally required by a home owner

One of the questions on sale enquiries asks if any electrical work has been carried out since .....I think 2007. I think the original Approved Document P Electrical Safety came into force on 1st Jan 2005. If so the appropriate documentation needs to be supplied. Without that, it's likely to cost the seller £££ to satisfy the buyer and his lender that the electrics are ok. Far better to have the paperwork in place beforehand.

There is already a mechanism in place to obtain retrospective FENSA certificates.