ukhappyuk Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hi i have or had a tenant who was on a AST for six months and i served a section 21 for the tenant to vacate the property giving him 2 months notice (after the six month AST) as of abusive and noise issues at the property, as soon as the tenant recieved the section 21 he issued me a months notice to vacate one month prior to the section 21 that has another 3 weeks to run. i was happy with this and thought all was good. since then the date has passed and he has not moved his belongings out or been contactable or his references been contactable, the windows were left open so a notice to enter was left at the property stating the property would be entered in 24 hours to secure the property and the police were also informed incase the tenant was unwell in the property as no contact could be made. the police attended while the property was entered and no tenant was present but all his furniture was there so a notice of abandonment was placed in the property giving him 7 days to contact and as of yet nothing. on the abandonment notice it states the locks will be changed if no contact is made. since then there was a set of keys found in the communal area by the management company and these were given to myself and they look like the keys to my flat but i cant try the door as this would be trying to enter the property. My question would this be classed as abandonment and how do i reclaim my property and what if he shows up in a week or so even though he gave me notice to vacate and this has passed ? what do i do with the tenants belongings ? Any help would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 There is no such thing in any of the housing acts that refer re possession of a property due to abandonment. But in reality it is used but you have to be very careful and if the tenant was to show up you have to give them access to their home and then go down the normal possession route through the courts. In your case I see nothing wrong in popping your head into the property to try to get a idea if he has vacated. If you then decide to take a risk because you believe he has vacated change the locks but leave a notice on the door with a contact number just in case they come back in the near future. When you on into the property take lots of photo and inventory all items left preferably with a witness. You do have a responsibility to store the items for a period of time and to mitigate the possibility of any possible illegal eviction claim keep a record of all correspondence trying to contact the tenants, guarantor's etc. Also speak to the neighbours and take notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukhappyuk Posted May 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Thanks for the info Grampa, could you just clarify that his notice that he served on me to vacate is neither valid or would stack up in court if he indeed came back say in two weeks time ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 I seem to remember a previous post which suggested that if a tenant serves notice and then stays on past the notice period they are liable for TWICE the monthly rent. Perhaps someone can confirm/ clarify ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Ok I can answer my own question. A quick search of the web gives the answer : It's S18 Distress for Rent Act 1737 Landlord can claim double rent if tenant serves notices and then stays on past the date. Note that T's notice to L need not be in writing, but the notice must be unconditional. Looks like Christmas has arrived early folks !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukhappyuk Posted May 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hi Richlist, thanks for the info but unfortunately i need to locate the Tenant to claim Rent and i just can not contact him basically no response to phone, letter, right to enter notice and Abandonment notice that has now been in place for 4 days . I also find it very odd that his furniture is still in the property and im almost certain i now have the keys although there is no way of knowing if another set has been cut. Just seems so strange that he served me notice then the day he before he was due to leave went into the estate agent and said he would hand the keys in the next day then just vanishes. Thanks again and all info is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Well he could be on vacation, visiting friends or family, in a cell, a mortuary or hospital. Many people are not unduly concerned about a few individual items of furniture unless they are high value. On the one occasion I was in this position I entered the property and looked inside the cupboards for evidence of clothing, documents, money or anything that might indicate the tenant could be planning to return. Empty wardrobes, cupboards and drawers or if they contain just rubbish is a clue he ain't coming back. If you search the web for info on abandonment it should throw up your legal responsibilities with regards to timing, storage and costs. I assume there is a deposit correctly protected and the prescribed information was correctly served ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukhappyuk Posted May 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Richlist, yes deposit is protected and all notices have so far been served correctly, I have taken a trip down to the property tonight and the abandonment notice that was placed on the door has been removed so looks like he has received this so will have to wait until next week to see if he makes contact as the flat in question is top floor with own entry that no one other than the tenant or his friends etc would go down. I also spoke to the letting agent and they seem to think that as he has served notice and if he has abandoned the property the flat will revert back to myself but i am not so sure after reading up online ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 The bottom line is that the property isn't reliably back in your possession until, it is surrendered, or a court Bailiff returns it to you after repossession has been granted by a court. All other circumstances leave the LL with an element of risk that a T may claim he still has legal right to possession. Trouble is we can't run a business on those grounds as the extra expence and losses leave us out of pocket with little chance of recovery, even if proven to be legally correct in court. If you have reasonable grounds to believe the property is abandoned you have already done all you 'reasonably' can. But if the T wants the place you must give him access and then go through the court process. So far your evedence , he served notice to you, he confirmed same to estate agent by saying he would return keys (I would confirm with them that they will provide written evidence of this 'if required'.) Check your keys fit. Do as RL and check for tooth brush style things. Check if the utility suppliers have had the accounts closed. Ask if council tax is now your responsibility, and if so from what date. With enough evidence the T just looks like a burk should he make claim later. As for the belongings, I haven't stored yet and don't intend to. I realise legally we have responsibility but sometimes such expectations a bloody ludicrous. If he wants it he should look after it. Find a local 2nd hand furniture shop and ask him to buy it. You've then demonstrated it's value, if any, for any later claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukhappyuk Posted May 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 Hi Just to give a update and hopefully get more help. the tenant turned up at the estate agents the day after the abandonment notice ran out saying he had lost his phone and keys (for a week, hard to believe and just decided to turn up) and wanted to arrange to have his furniture removed from the property the next day. the following day no surprises he did not show at the estate agents as they were going to go down with him to give him access to remove his property, at no stage has he requested new keys or stated he is living at the property. from that day no contact has been made from the tenant to the estate agents, the estate agents have tried to contact his family and sent more letters out. his original notice date to myself was the 11th May 2015. i have given him every opportunity to collect his belongings or state he still lives at the property but nothing he just says he wants to remove his furniture, the date he turned up at the estate agents last week was 20th May and then nothing again. can i now remove and sell his items or store them for a month and take possession back ? i cant see how i would be unlawfully evicting him if he has stated he is giving up the flat but just has not signed the surrender form or handed the keys back as he has lost the keys so can not do that one at least. If he was wanting to live there surely he would of requested keys but no he states he is living somewhere else and just wants his furniture. i know from the estate agents there is also damage in the property nothing major but damaged plaster and a bit of a mess. I would appreciate any advice on what i can do with this one please. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 Fact - unless you get a possession order from a court you could be illegally evicting him and liable for the consequences - I write as someone who has had 1st hand dealings with this sort of thing. When he gave you notice you should have issued a Section 21 notice just in case this happened then you could have applied to the court for an order. Change the locks and put a notice on the door saying where he, the tenant can collect the keys (ie from you). That gives you a bit more control. Do you know his place of work? Try contacting him there or his family. If he is more than 2 months in arrears of rent go for a Section 8 possession which is quicker than S21. When you go in to change the locks take many pics and/or video the damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexm Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 You can pack their stuff and seal it while videorecord the operation so that you stay safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukhappyuk Posted June 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 hi just an update and any further advice. My section 21 is about to hit 2 months on monday coming and still we have had no contact at all from the tenant, i now know through others he has lost his job and is currently unemployed, and not been to the property for weeks and still has no keys as he says he lost them and he wanted the estate agent to let him in to remove his furniture (25th May) but failed to make contact again. i must state he has never requested a set of keys but i do have the ones he lost as i was informed by the managing agent there were keys lying in the main entrance to the building and i collected them and have tried in the front door and they work (did not enter property). i do have insurance and they will pay for a section 8 but not a section 21 to go to eviction and i still have rent protection (will find out monday how strong this insurance is when i submit full claim) my question is should i go section 8 as i know he will not pay any rent as he is already £1150 behind so it does not make sense especially as i know he is not living there i just can not prove it in law terms or do i go for section 21 guaranteeing eviction but also costing me more money in the long run ? lastly i have also considered just taking the property back and changing the locks as this just seems a one crazy situation, there are still the belongings inside (settee, beds, cloths and toothbrush) i know he is not in prison as he was seen high on drugs running around in his underpants outside a friends house (i have done some detective work) and is coming to light has been involved with the police a few times recently for either public disorder relating to drink or drugs. i know the law states he must surrender or i have to have a court order but i have also read if i have done everything reasonably and suspect the building to be abandoned (notices on door, post overflowing, contacting him and his reference, speaking to neighbours to see if they have heard or seen the tenant then if he does try to take me for unlawful eviction i can prove i done everything i could to confirm he had abandon the property (he also countered my section 21 with his own notice saying he would leave a month earlier) ???? Help please. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 If you take the property back without an Surrender or court order there is a fair chance he will go running of to Shelter or similar and they will be on your back - only you can decide. When I did this a couple of years ago I ended up with a criminal record and a fine of £1000 (tenant owed £ 2,800) - could be you think that is worth it. For me, with hindsight it was worth it - but I am not saying you should do it. Section 8 - make the application now - like you say he is unlikely to pay up so much in the way of arrears. Make sure you attend the hearing and at least that is paid for. I can't believe this guy got rent insurance! If the S8 fails for some mad reason then pursue the S21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Mortitia is it possible to give a bit more info about the situation you got caught out with? Was a abandonment notice used? Was the tenant demanding the property back and if so would that have stopped the court process. Or was it just a money making excise by the tenant and Shelter just being Shelter wanting to stick one to us big bad landlords? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I did write my case up on here - ages ago now. Tenant had gone on benefits but used payments to send his Mrs on a holiday to the Philipines (her homeland). Other residents in block maintained he had left but abandoned a pram on the landing - against fire regs. Section 21 issued correctly but court (Wandsworth) were very, very slow in responding to N5b. Gas cert expired, insurance invalidated. Went to property and entered to find him hiding under bed. Seems all sorts were after him. Police called and arrested him - he was a suspect in something or other. We left. He vacated in 5 days. 3 months later (after he had left) - police arrest me for illegal entry. Yes, Shelter and the CPS stitched me up. There was no doubt that the two reps of those organisations were VERY friendly and it was a whitewash. To answer your question Grampa - no did not use abandonment notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Well Shelter in my view will do anything to cause difficulties to landlords no matter the behaviour of the tenant. The CPS have an agenda (in my opinion) to get their statistics up to justify their jobs. Every time I go to court which isn't very often nowadays unless I'm helping landlords out who messed up self-managing there is a parasite Shelter rep there going round the waiting room asking "are you a landlord or tenant". They move on as soon as you say landlord and only want to speak to you to ask you to give move time to a tenant or some other angle to stall the eviction process. That I can understand but its their attitude when you show them photos and give details of what the tenant has done. They couldn't give a s--t. Until Shelter start working with Landlords to improve things for landlords and tenant they will always be looked upon as a parasitic, left wing, ambulance chasing organisation. Which I think they are. Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I take it they aren't on your Christmas card list this year then ? I understand their new 'charity' furniture shop is worthy of a visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Very good Richlist. Totally agree Grampa - I have seen the Shelter worker at court too. CPS - yes lamb to the slaughter in that case. Just another statistic. Not that it has affected my life. I have had to explain why a criminal record to insurance companies and all their representatives have said they would have done same in circumstances. I have had many run ins with Shelter whilst acting for other landlords and usually come out OK at court (depends on the judge). I also fly into a rant in the street when their charity workers wearing those bright apron things (not the Masons) try to sign you up for a donation! As if!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 You cant confuse a charity worker with a freemason as the freemason has his trouser leg rolled up, a bowl of fruit on is head and being lead by a goat. No offence meant to freemasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I usually find the funny handshake a dead give away.....and often the badge they wear on the lapel of their jacket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Richlist I would have guest you as being the grand wizard for Essex area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 My only involvement with the f/masons was many years ago a business I was part of rented some premises from them. We found them easy to deal with, a pleasure to do business with and their prices were lower than the competiton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 They are also one of the largest charity donors in the UK after the national lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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