section 8, section 21 or both OR JAIL

[fit4life]

Hi WIse Ones, I have a quick question, :

1. My tenant who was given a section 21 when she signed the tenancy agreement has declared that i didn,t give her 1, what do i now do as the tenancy ends on 8th of sept. Do i serve her another section 21 now or wait for the 13th (14/3/12- 13/9/12), and what date do i put on it the old date or the date 13/11/12?

2. She owes me over 2 grand in arears and have now added another 4 weeks to the bill having suspended her housing benefits. I got a letter from the benfits people say ing the payments have been suspended while my tenant and i are in 'dispute', its been 4 weeks no rent. Can the benefits people really do this have some 1 live for free at my expense. Whats the best course of action.

3. The inspector came and asked me to fix several points on the house, which i did now he wont come and sign them off as fixed as its the tenant who needs to call him again which she refuses to do instead she is along with her 5 kids TRASHING my house to bits. the CAB have instructed her to suspend her benfits as its her right and her benefits so she can do with it what ever she likes.

Flooding the bathroom as resulted in the ceiling of the kitchen coming down, 2nd time being fixed now, walls and carpets unrecognisable.

I really dont have the strenght or money to fight having treament for depression.

4. How do i help to stop this lady from making a fool out of another landlord with a soft heart. She INSIST that i take her to court, too expensive which was the reason for giving her the notice at the start of the contract,' before you start to give me problems just leave' the same words i said to my X-boyfriend, but now i discover it the court papers she needs to take to the council in order to be rehoused. I dont think she should be rehoused and certainly not at my expense.

Your comments are welcomed.

[fit4life]

Well forgive the miss calculation it was actually 4 questions...

[keithLHS]

Hi WIse Ones, I have a quick question, :

1. My tenant who was given a section 21 when she signed the tenancy agreement has declared that i didn,t give her 1, what do i now do as the tenancy ends on 8th of sept. Do i serve her another section 21 now or wait for the 13th (14/3/12- 13/9/12), and what date do i put on it the old date or the date 13/11/12?

2. She owes me over 2 grand in arears and have now added another 4 weeks to the bill having suspended her housing benefits. I got a letter from the benfits people say ing the payments have been suspended while my tenant and i are in 'dispute', its been 4 weeks no rent. Can the benefits people really do this have some 1 live for free at my expense. Whats the best course of action.

3. The inspector came and asked me to fix several points on the house, which i did now he wont come and sign them off as fixed as its the tenant who needs to call him again which she refuses to do instead she is along with her 5 kids TRASHING my house to bits. the CAB have instructed her to suspend her benfits as its her right and her benefits so she can do with it what ever she likes.

Flooding the bathroom as resulted in the ceiling of the kitchen coming down, 2nd time being fixed now, walls and carpets unrecognisable.

I really dont have the strenght or money to fight having treament for depression.

4. How do i help to stop this lady from making a fool out of another landlord with a soft heart. She INSIST that i take her to court, too expensive which was the reason for giving her the notice at the start of the contract,' before you start to give me problems just leave' the same words i said to my X-boyfriend, but now i discover it the court papers she needs to take to the council in order to be rehoused. I dont think she should be rehoused and certainly not at my expense.

Your comments are welcomed.

The short answer is you can't. You've caught yourself a delinquent tenant and there's just the slog of pursuing your Section 8 and Section 21 notices. I really wouldn't rely on one or the other. Your tenant can get legal aid to defend your s8 claim and her solicitors will pursue you for a disrepair claim as there has been some disrepair at the property. Your defence will obviously be that the disrepair was as a result of your tenants abuse of the property but that won't stop your s8 hearing being adjourned to await a full trial of the disrepair claim. The argument is that the calculation of 8 weeks arrears to result in a mandatory possession order cannot be proven until the value of the compensation for the disrepair is calculated.

Continue with your s21 action and hope that your word is believed over your tenants word at Court that the notice was properly served but in the meantime serve her another s21 Notice just in case it isn't.

The joys of being a landlord.

[LLAW96]

Lets take this step by step.

1. Whether you gave her a s.21 notice is a matter of fact. How did you give her the notice? Did you give it her by hand? Was it posted? Did you get her to sign a copy? If you gave it her by hand then it would be your evidence to a judge that it was delivered by hand and it will be up to the judge to decide who he believes. Remember as you are bringing the claim it is up to you to prove service of your notice. On the basis the notice was served you also need to consider whether the notice was valid. If it was served on the same day you entered into the agreement how are you going to prove that the notice was served after the agreement was entered into? If you took a deposit was the notice served after the deposit was protected? On the basis that you are going to have a dispute of material fact, it may be wise to serve a further notice on a without prejudice basis i.e your position is that your earlier notice was valid however to secure your position you are serving a further s.21 notice. You seem to be saying that the tenancy ends on the 8th September and then the 13th, whichever date it is you should serve your notice now. This is because you are still within the fixed term of the tenancy and you can still rely on a notice under s21b (two months notice) rather than s21(4)(a) (two months ending on the last date of a period of a tenancy). Make sure you notice is served on her by hand and send a copy to the CAB.

2. As I am reading this there seems to be a dispute between you and your tenant resulting in her applying to suspend payments. From your post this seems to relate to disrepair, you will appreciate without knowing the history to the matter or seriousness of the disrepair it is hard to express an opinion. Having said this if she owes arrears of rent you could serve a section 8 notice, however as night follows day when you issue your claim for possession she will lodge a counterclaim for disrepair. No doubt the CAB have advised her in relation to her rights and she will be granted legal aid to defend your claim. As it stands if there is a genuine dispute then she is quite entitled to stop payments, the money should be paid into a suspense account pending resolution.

3. You have had a building inspector call, what type of abatement notice did he serve? If they have served you with a notice then clearly there are issues at the property, are you saying the disrepair was caused by the tenant or are there underlying issues? If the repairs have been completed the inspector cannot refuse to sign them off. If the tenant is not cooperating and he will not listen go above his head and complain in writing. If the tenant is damaging the property the you may have grounds for applying for an abridged hearing date.

4. How do you stop her? You don't you just take steps to proctect yourself i.e references, rent guarantee, rent deposit, common sense. Unfortunately you are in a landlord and tenant relationship and she is within her rights to require you to go to court in order to get possession. It is not too expensive if you prepare properly and you get your act together. Finally she does not need court papers in order for the council to re-house if you have served a valid s.21 notice and you intend to issue court proceedings then it is no longer reasonable for her to remain in occupation of your property, see paragraph 8.32 Homelessness Code of Guidance for Local Authorities. Surely you want her out asap, the council will contact you if you tell them you want her out due to arrears of rent they will find her intentionally homeless. In the circumstances you might just want to bite your lip and say you just want the property back for your own purposes.

[caravanj]

Hi WIse Ones, I have a quick question, :

1. My tenant who was given a section 21 when she signed the tenancy agreement has declared that i didn,t give her 1, what do i now do as the tenancy ends on 8th of sept. Do i serve her another section 21 now or wait for the 13th (14/3/12- 13/9/12), and what date do i put on it the old date or the date 13/11/12?

2. She owes me over 2 grand in arears and have now added another 4 weeks to the bill having suspended her housing benefits. I got a letter from the benfits people say ing the payments have been suspended while my tenant and i are in 'dispute', its been 4 weeks no rent. Can the benefits people really do this have some 1 live for free at my expense. Whats the best course of action.

3. The inspector came and asked me to fix several points on the house, which i did now he wont come and sign them off as fixed as its the tenant who needs to call him again which she refuses to do instead she is along with her 5 kids TRASHING my house to bits. the CAB have instructed her to suspend her benfits as its her right and her benefits so she can do with it what ever she likes.

Flooding the bathroom as resulted in the ceiling of the kitchen coming down, 2nd time being fixed now, walls and carpets unrecognisable.

I really dont have the strenght or money to fight having treament for depression.

4. How do i help to stop this lady from making a fool out of another landlord with a soft heart. She INSIST that i take her to court, too expensive which was the reason for giving her the notice at the start of the contract,' before you start to give me problems just leave' the same words i said to my X-boyfriend, but now i discover it the court papers she needs to take to the council in order to be rehoused. I dont think she should be rehoused and certainly not at my expense.

Your comments are welcomed.

Law's covered the points very well but the one area where you've got a bit of wriggle room is the state of the property because of damage caused by the tenant in which case you could use a Section 8 Ground 13 whereby you can start eviction proceedings after giving a minimum of two weeks notice to quit. Of course you'll have to be able to show that the tenant has caused actual damage.You could also consider using a Section 8 Ground 1 if you've lived in the house at some point & intend to return to live in it but this one's very dodgy if you use it & then don't proceed to live in the property.

Have you asked the neighbours if the tenant & or any visitors are causing a nuisance because this can be grounds for evicting them & you could start eviction proceeding as soon as you've issued notice to quit notice but of course you'd need good strong evidence.

[LLAW96]

Problem is damage to property/nuisance are discretioanry grounds and will be subject to a reasonableness defence under s.7 Housing Act 1988, further the court has the power to suspend any order for possession even if the ground is proved. Although returning landlord (ground 1) is a mandatory ground you would have to have served prior notice stating you would be relying on this ground in addition they property would have to have been previously occupied by you as your principal place of abode. Alternatively you could try and convince the court to dispense with the requirement of notice (good luck with that application).

[Carryon Regardless]

Law some clarification of my understanding might be useful for the OP.

If there is an active notice of improvement it's my belief that any repossession notice has no value.

Only a notice served prior to the improvement notice or after the inspector 'signs off' as complete will have value ??

It follows then that if the T continues to cause adverse situations to the property that might cause the inspector to detail improvements at any future visit. So the situation continues.

As I would be surprised if an inspector were to sign off without sight of how might a LL cause the works to be signed off if the inspector has some difficulty gaining access ?

[LLAW96]

I presume under the 204 Housing Act, I am not sure on that point but will check. In my experience inspectors will have a pragmatic approach where the tenant does not cooperate/allow access.

[LLAW96]

I am still waiting for clarification on what notice was served eg an abatement notice under environmental protection act or cat 1/2 improvement notice.

[caravanj]

Problem is damage to property/nuisance are discretioanry grounds and will be subject to a reasonableness defence under s.7 Housing Act 1988, further the court has the power to suspend any order for possession even if the ground is proved. Although returning landlord (ground 1) is a mandatory ground you would have to have served prior notice stating you would be relying on this ground in addition they property would have to have been previously occupied by you as your principal place of abode. Alternatively you could try and convince the court to dispense with the requirement of notice (good luck with that application).

Yes, when faced with my problem I gritted my teeth & accepted it would be a long game, which it was, although it wasn't hugely expensive & not as expensive as using a 'nudge nudge, wink wink' alternative would have potentially been very expensive in fines & damages.

[Richlist]

Mmmm......Perhaps you guys need to borrow my rent collector for a few days ?

He's never failed to collect yet and if he turned up on my doorstep I'd probably just pay him...... even though I don't owe him any money !

[fit4life]

Law some clarification of my understanding might be useful for the OP.

If there is an active notice of improvement it's my belief that any repossession notice has no value.

Only a notice served prior to the improvement notice or after the inspector 'signs off' as complete will have value ??

It follows then that if the T continues to cause adverse situations to the property that might cause the inspector to detail improvements at any future visit. So the situation continues.

As I would be surprised if an inspector were to sign off without sight of how might a LL cause the works to be signed off if the inspector has some difficulty gaining access ?

Thanks for this point spoke with the inspector today who admitted he has never met the tenant and on several occassion he has tried to call to arrange visit but without success.

[fit4life]

I am still waiting for clarification on what notice was served eg an abatement notice under environmental protection act or cat 1/2 improvement notice.

not sure what an abatement notice is but this is what it says or some of it...

: item1 is classifies as Category1 hazard items 2-7 are classified as category 2 and the council has discretionary powers to take formal enforcement actions.

Item 1 : the tenant reports central heating works erratically. Tenant reports no EPC was present at start of tenancy and no gas safety checks carried out.

I have emailed a copy of the EPC n GSC plus spent 350 pounds repairing and boiler and 5 call outs for NOTHING, the gas man charged me a tenner in sympathy.

Mould n Damp : My husband went tot he house to clean out cat fur in vents on windows vents and wipe moulds off walls

Unprotected pipes wrapped with plastic casings now all stripped again and yet exposed again...

hope this helps

[fit4life]

Oh my mistake tenancy agreement started on 14/3.12 ends 13/9/12... what date should go in expiery date on section 21(1b).?

[LLAW96]

two months from the date you serve, and you need to be quick as you are almost into a statutory periodic tenancy.

[fit4life]

I am still waiting for clarification on what notice was served eg an abatement notice under environmental protection act or cat 1/2 improvement notice.

not sure what an abatement notice is but this is what it says or some of it...

: item1 is classifies as Category1 hazard items 2-7 are classified as category 2 and the council has discretionary powers to take formal enforcement actions.

Item 1 : the tenant reports central heating works erratically. Tenant reports no EPC was present at start of tenancy and no gas safety checks carried out.

I have emailed a copy of the EPC n GSC plus spent 350 pounds repairing and boiler and 5 call outs for NOTHING, the gas man charged me a tenner in sympathy.

Mould n Damp : My husband went tot he house to clean out cat fur in vents on windows vents and wipe moulds off walls

Unprotected pipes wrapped with plastic casings now all stripped again and yet exposed again...

hope this helps

you to help me, inspectors say they cant sign off as house is now in even worst state. Save from planting secret cameras how do i prove this is deliberate.

[Carryon Regardless]

There is a strong possibility here that you have 'professional' T's.

If I so wished I know how to make a LL's life a total nightmare, all within the law. The cost would be beyond their pocket as I would choose the LL with purpose, to me no cost (aside from available time), nowt available so nowt to lose.

You or the system are being worked. It seems they have good knowledge of how. The system will care less that they have been here before (likely) and so have experience (and so knowledge). The unfortunate part is that they have great protection while you have only the protection if you can afford it (unlikely).

I won't give advice as any actions are a judgement call and can have very serious consequences, and first you should understand the possible outcomes.

Merely as suggestions.

First off serve a valid repossession S21 notice, give consideration to a S8 notice but personally I find them too clumsy, but not to be dismissed.

Try to understand what their goal is. It's very sad but a 'back hander' might be the best way froward. If your naive they are likely to see it so be knowledgeable before any approach.

T's that tell me of their power visibly recoil when I quote legislation at them, they're often only confident against an easy target.

I am 70kg but can do ok with some well founded confidence.

[fit4life]

There is a strong possibility here that you have 'professional' T's.

If I so wished I know how to make a LL's life a total nightmare, all within the law. The cost would be beyond their pocket as I would choose the LL with purpose, to me no cost (aside from available time), nowt available so nowt to lose.

You or the system are being worked. It seems they have good knowledge of how. The system will care less that they have been here before (likely) and so have experience (and so knowledge). The unfortunate part is that they have great protection while you have only the protection if you can afford it (unlikely).

I won't give advice as any actions are a judgement call and can have very serious consequences, and first you should understand the possible outcomes.

Merely as suggestions.

First off serve a valid repossession S21 notice, give consideration to a S8 notice but personally I find them too clumsy, but not to be dismissed.

Try to understand what their goal is. It's very sad but a 'back hander' might be the best way froward. If your naive they are likely to see it so be knowledgeable before any approach.

T's that tell me of their power visibly recoil when I quote legislation at them, they're often only confident against an easy target.

I am 70kg but can do ok with some well founded confidence.

Thanks good to knw some1 understands how i feel, will be delivering another section 21 today, what more can i do. I am certain to be in big trouble with mortage co. after this 12 weeks of free living.