axil23 Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 I have a house in a really bad area. It got broken into one night luckily they only broke the back door and must have got disturbed. In that area they would have come back within hours or days and stripped the entire property of Metal which is a huge loss. We are talking 7-10k. Anyway this guy I knew who has done some work for me in the past said that he would stay there and also paint the house in the same time. I was scared of the house getting damaged so allowed him to stay there. Its been a few weeks and now and he keeps on saying he will move the next week. I think I need to know my rights on this one. Is he now a T so do I need to follow section 8 or is he a squatter since no contract verbal or written was agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 If you havent taken any rent payments off him he wont have a tenancy. Tell him you have a new tenant moving in next week on a certain day and that day cant be changed to put a bit pressure on. If he doesnt move by then it will give you an idea of his motive/plan and you may have to get legal on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Payment in kind surely. I would view him as T, He is there by agreement, you negotiated your reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 The new ' squatter law' comes in tomorrow so could be the time to be the first to try it out Axil? Call you local constabulary and see what they make of it? Let's hope you do better than me. Last week I had the rear screen of my car smashed on my drive by a disgruntled person (unfortunately no cast iron proof and nothing stolen), reported immediately and 3 days later Dorset police sent a bloke around on a pushbike to try and sell me their cheap jack CCTV. Just going back to the original circumstances - once all metal gone attack would have been unlikely to persist. IME metal thieves are looking for that, cash and nothing else. Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 My initial thoughts are you have not created a tenancy. Possible tenancy at will but that is easy to sort out. At worst you serve a notice to quit, the only cloud on the horizon will be a possible estopple claim or trust claim based on the work he has undertaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 LAW - what is the definition of ' a tenancy at will' and how can it be sorted? I have come across this a few times in auction properties and they sell very cheaply which would suggest a major problem. I have enquired of solicitors but always got a vague answer. Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 In effect an agreement by either party that can be terminated at any point. If you drill down into this situation and on the basis that no rent is being paid then s.3a Protection From Eviction Act 1977 applies and there would be an excluded licence with the owner at liberty to just change the locks when the occupier left the premises. As I said the cloud is the decorations, the risk being that the occupier will state that the owner said he could remain in occupation for x period of time because he had decorated/repaired the property. Maybe the author could clarify the position further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axil23 Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 If you havent taken any rent payments off him he wont have a tenancy. Tell him you have a new tenant moving in next week on a certain day and that day cant be changed to put a bit pressure on. If he doesnt move by then it will give you an idea of his motive/plan and you may have to get legal on him. Spoke with him and he says the he and his family have no where to go. Can't find another place to live but he is looking. I can see where this is going. What legal procedure would you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLAW96 Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 You are now saying he is occupying with a family. If this is the case and there are dependent children then they should register as homeless with the council. Subject to how he lost his previous property the council has a legal duty to re-house. The duty cannot be postponed or deferred, subject to the council making a final decision they have to provide temporary accommodation under s.188 housing act 1996. Sorted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tenants_from_hell Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 What new law comes out tommorow for squatters? Throw him out and change the locks simple as that. Or you will spend £1000s in courts and what not. He has no proof he was living there, end of. Ah found it! What penalties do residential squatters face? The offence of squatting in a residential building carries a maximum penalty of six months' imprisonment, a fine of up to £5,000 or both. Yeah like they will have £5000 to pay, they rather go inside for 6 months get 3 meals a day and a bed, they still win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axil23 Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Thanks for your help. So I guess the general consensus is that he is not a T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravanj Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I think this old post of mine will answer your question and although the circumstances are slightly different you will find that he may well be regarded a tenant. He's unlikely to be a squatter since you granted him entry & by accepting his labour as a condition of his occupancy you have, in effect, created a tenancy which can be verbal. I chose to use a Section 21 since a Section 8 would have been be too messy as I couldn't have proved rent arrears etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axil23 Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I think this old post of mine will answer your question and although the circumstances are slightly different you will find that he may well be regarded a tenant. He's unlikely to be a squatter since you granted him entry & by accepting his labour as a condition of his occupancy you have, in effect, created a tenancy which can be verbal. I chose to use a Section 21 since a Section 8 would have been be too messy as I couldn't have proved rent arrears etc. How can I use a section 21 though when there is no stated tenancy in place? Do I just give him a 2 month notice to quit? Technically if you let a person in your house to paint and he says that he will work day and night to get it done is he a Tenant? That is what the agreement is. He has no proof that he painted the house as from what I can see from the window that was not done too. He is not a nice person to do this so I don't see why I should give him the benefit of the doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravanj Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 How can I use a section 21 though when there is no stated tenancy in place? Do I just give him a 2 month notice to quit? Technically if you let a person in your house to paint and he says that he will work day and night to get it done is he a Tenant? I know he didn't say that but that is what the agreement is. He has no proof that he painted the house as from what I can see from the window that was not done too. He is not a nice person to do this so I don't see why I should give him the benefit of the doubt. No matter what else he isn't a squatter. A tenancy does not have to be in writing, it can be verbal or even implied in some cases & can be created even if you aren't aware that you've created it. If you let someone reside in your property & they do work for which you do not pay them they can argue that this is in lieu of rent & he could well argue that his guarding of your property was worth £X per week. Whether he's a nice person is totally irrelevant to this issue as is whether or not you should give him the benefit of the doubt. Stop regarding it as a personal matter & concentrate on the legalities & pursue the legal options. I did a Section 21 because there's no requirement to give a reason & repossession is more or less mandatory. I used the date when my 'builder' moved in as the starting date of a non-written tenancy & it went through the County Court at the 1st hearing with no problem whatsoever despite various attempted challenges by my 'builder'. You won't be able to gain possession until after the AST 6 months has expired. If you or a close relative intend to occupy the property personally then different rules apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tenants_from_hell Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Do you want him out, yes or no? Be honest with me? 6 months for AST to end??! Are you out of your mind?! Without any rent?!?! If you do then simply go around ask him to get out. If he doesnt, call the police say you asked him to paint your house or whatever and he is simply refusing to leave. Just say you didnt tell him he can stay. You have to lie to win sometimes mate. Otherwise I wish you the best of luck going through courts and that and issuing these ridiculously long section notices! This letting game is a very tough game hence my attitude on here might seem like I am a tw@ !! I been in this game for the last 5 years and have been bought up in this game in the last 20 years so I know some in's and out's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axil23 Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Do you want him out, yes or no? Be honest with me? 6 months for AST to end??! Are you out of your mind?! Without any rent?!?! If you do then simply go around ask him to get out. If he doesnt, call the police say you asked him to paint your house or whatever and he is simply refusing to leave. Just say you didnt tell him he can stay. You have to lie to win sometimes mate. Otherwise I wish you the best of luck going through courts and that and issuing these ridiculously long section notices! This letting game is a very tough game hence my attitude on here might seem like I am a tw@ !! I been in this game for the last 5 years and have been bought up in this game in the last 20 years so I know some in's and out's! I love the way you think! These T's don't play fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tenants_from_hell Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Well my friend, I know they dont. This what I would do! You have to because 1) its a lot quicker and 2) your losing out and 3) if it goes on you lose out more i.e. court costs etc. Are we landlords made of money? NO! People think we are, lets not forget the expenses (gas and electric certificates, insurance, furniture, repairs (Very pricey), registering of deposits). And if you think you can afford to play the long game then by all means good luck to your sir! I rather have a property empty than keep it to tossers! This is one of the reasons some properties are empty, because experienced landlords like myself can identify a rouge tenant, and its hard finding a decent one hence properties stay vacant for a while. Its a lot better for having no stress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axil23 Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Well my friend, I know they dont. This what I would do! You have to because 1) its a lot quicker and 2) your losing out and 3) if it goes on you lose out more i.e. court costs etc. Are we landlords made of money? NO! People think we are, lets not forget the expenses (gas and electric certificates, insurance, furniture, repairs (Very pricey), registering of deposits). And if you think you can afford to play the long game then by all means good luck to your sir! I rather have a property empty than keep it to tossers! This is one of the reasons some properties are empty, because experienced landlords like myself can identify a rouge tenant, and its hard finding a decent one hence properties stay vacant for a while. Its a lot better for having no stress! Again well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravanj Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Again well said. Well you've had plenty of advice so I suppose it's up to you whether or not you go down the 100% legal route or take the 'snudge snudge, wink wink' advice. Just remember that not all tenants will be scared when you shout "boo". There are lots of cases where 'clever' landlords took their own action & found that their tenant stuffed them arse-end up at the court hearing & got them a criminal conviction as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axil23 Posted September 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Well you've had plenty of advice so I suppose it's up to you whether or not you go down the 100% legal route or take the 'snudge snudge, wink wink' advice. Just remember that not all tenants will be scared when you shout "boo". There are lots of cases where 'clever' landlords took their own action & found that their tenant stuffed them arse-end up at the court hearing & got them a criminal conviction as well. I wish I could afford to sponsor his rent for 6 months but I can't. Trust me I have seen them all and know that you don't win them all. BTW I am pursuing 4 section 8's right now. So don't think I look for the easy way out with all my T's. How could I face criminal damages on this one? What proof does he have to say I let this to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 axil it would please me if you were to do this 'your way'. But please update us on the outcome as it might well turn out to be valuable education for the rest of us, they give access to internet inside don't they ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravanj Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 I wish I could afford to sponsor his rent for 6 months but I can't. Trust me I have seen them all and know that you don't win them all. BTW I am pursuing 4 section 8's right now. So don't think I look for the easy way out with all my T's. How could I face criminal damages on this one? What proof does he have to say I let this to him? I don't know why I even bother to try to help with advice gained from my own experience & expensive paid-for legal advice. I never mentioned criminal damage, I said that if you sort out a tenant by other than legal means you risk getting a criminal conviction & I'm not aware of any legal means other than a Section 8 or 21 etc. I suggest you go ahead & do whatever you want to do. As COR has said, please let us know what you eventually do & what the outcome is as this is a forum intended to help it's members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axil23 Posted September 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 axil it would please me if you were to do this 'your way'. But please update us on the outcome as it might well turn out to be valuable education for the rest of us, they give access to internet inside don't they ? Can you advise how I would be legally wrong in this? What exactly can I be prosecuted for? I have not given him a rental AST verbally or written nether have we negotiated a cash sum or equivalent for his services. I am not trying to argue, just trying to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tenants_from_hell Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Can you advise how I would be legally wrong in this? What exactly can I be prosecuted for? I have not given him a rental AST verbally or written nether have we negotiated a cash sum or equivalent for his services. I am not trying to argue, just trying to learn. You wont be legally wrong. Like I said you simply say you told him to paint the property which he has done and now he is refusing to leave! Simple as that. Since there is nothing on paper its his word against yours! Just call the cops when you go round, and they will tell him to sod off believe me! When I and the tenants agree to a date when they wish to leave, and when they dont leave by this date and play "riffraff" I call the cops they usually give them another 24 hour period notice and tell them to do one. You dont have the time and money to go down the "legal" route for someone who is ILLEGALLY in your property!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 We know courts will more often give sympathy to T's. Here you have a family you wish to displace. If / when you go in front of a Judge to say "I only gave the keys so he could paint" A Judge logically will assess how long He and his family have been living there with out your attempt to regain possession. The events that led to his getting the keys, that being His assertion that you needed security, and not from a paintbrush. You granting a tenancy and then changing your mind will look pretty obvious in my mind. Him being a free loading git is rarely a worry of the Court, especially as he has a family. I don't like the things that are often done to me by T's, and an unwelcome bf left in a flat by the real T. But before I would attempt some of my preferred, cheaper, and faster methods of repossession I weigh up the likely outcome. You could try changing locks while they are 'all' out but if the Police or later a Court believe they are in any type of tenancy you're goosed. Are they ? I say yes and to me it's obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.