HELP NEEDED - Nightmare tenants

[JMK]

Hi

Please could anyone tell me what my options are:

I had two tenants in my property who moved out without any notice given, they owe me £1200 in rent arrears, plus approx £1500 of damage done to the property.

They both received benefits and managed to get their housing benefit stopped from coming to me and paid directly to them (the council never notified me of this change), so the arrears shot up dramatically without my knowledge. (the tenants had to top the rent up each month). They have only moved around the corner!!! I have phoned, written letters, called in on them - they just keep telling me 'next week'.

They wouldn't give the keys back so I took possession. They have kept a dog in the property that has completely distroyed the carpets, doors, window and skirting, and the property now stinks! - (the agreement clearly says no pets). They have damaged several areas of plasterwork. We had to clear out two large trailer loads of rubbish from the back garden. The washing machine is missing. The list is endless!!!

I am in the process of getting the £500 deposit back.

Any ideas? Thank you

[Melboy]

Simon (Rodent) will give the definitive answer to your question but for me I would start legal proceedings via an online application through the small claims court and follow up with the debt collectors as a 2 prong attack.

Do not allow them to get away with it!

As for moving round the corner then the new Landlord (if renting) must be an A class numb-nut.

On the plus side at least they have gone and not hanging in there to create even more problems for you.

Mel.

[Trenners]

Hi JMK,

An absolute disaster .... and it is great news that they have vacated your property.

You need to tightly manage tenancies with people who claim Housing Benefit. That includes making sure that the benefit is paid over to you

every two weeks or every four weeks (depending on how frequent your local authority pay the tenants - which might be different to the frequency that they

pay the landlords). Future DSS tenants will have their benefit paid to them (it is rarely paid to the landlord anymore).

If you had tightly controlled this DSS tenancy then you would probably not have got to be £1,200 in rent arrears as you could have involved the Council sooner - and both put pressure on the tenants sooner.

If you take DSS tenants in the future I would advise 1) a guarantor if you can get one, 2) rent collected every 2 weeks, 3) Section 21 issued at the start of the tenancy 4) regular inspections ......

Hope that helps .....

Mark

[JMK]

Simon (Rodent) will give the definitive answer to your question but for me I would start legal proceedings via an online application through the small claims court and follow up with the debt collectors as a 2 prong attack.

Do not allow them to get away with it!

As for moving round the corner then the new Landlord (if renting) must be an A class numb-nut.

On the plus side at least they have gone and not hanging in there to create even more problems for you.

Mel.

Thank you for your reply.

That is defiately a route I think I should go down - out of interest, does anyone know how effective the small claims court is, or is it just likely to be more hassle for me? They (tenants) strike me as the sort of people who just don't care what is thrown at them.

I know they will just say they have no money and can't pay. Even though I know one of them has been working (I have reported this to the benefits office!).

Thank you again.

[Preston]

Hi

Like you I would find this problem very annoying. Over the years in my day job I have chased lots of debts of this kind. As a rough idea, a collection rate of around 40% would be considered very good going indeed.

Don't let that put you off though; it tends to be the ones that disappear that are the worst to deal with, simply because tracing agents really arent that good. The best results are achieved when you know where they are and even better if they are in work. It is true that you could end up spending good money chasing after bad, but my own view is that some landlords give up too soon, put off by the apparent complexities, delays and cost.

In reality, the system really is relatively simple, although I have to admit it can be very slow. So, it definitely sounds worth going for a money judgement (court order) to start with. After that you can assess the value of going further, if they dont pay up. Options would include an attachment of earnings order if they are in work, instructing bailiffs to seize their goods, having them "publicly examined" in court so they have to give full details of their income and assets, etc. Each stage costs you a fee - thats the risk element - but the initial stages are relatively cheap when compared with the size of the debt you are owed.

The key to succcess in court is evidence. If they owe arrears, produce very clear comprehensive payment schedules right from the start of the tenancy. For the damage they have caused, provide schedules of condition from before they moved in (ideally including photographs) and full inspection reports of the damage (again including photographs if possible). The repair work should be fully detailed and costed with evidence of expenditure if you have already done the work.

Good luck

[JMK]

Hi JMK,

An absolute disaster .... and it is great news that they have vacated your property.

You need to tightly manage tenancies with people who claim Housing Benefit. That includes making sure that the benefit is paid over to you

every two weeks or every four weeks (depending on how frequent your local authority pay the tenants - which might be different to the frequency that they

pay the landlords). Future DSS tenants will have their benefit paid to them (it is rarely paid to the landlord anymore).

If you had tightly controlled this DSS tenancy then you would probably not have got to be £1,200 in rent arrears as you could have involved the Council sooner - and both put pressure on the tenants sooner.

If you take DSS tenants in the future I would advise 1) a guarantor if you can get one, 2) rent collected every 2 weeks, 3) Section 21 issued at the start of the tenancy 4) regular inspections ......

Hope that helps .....

Mark

Thank you Mark.

I think I have learnt my lesson, all be it an expensive one!!

I did my last inspection at the begining of the summer and the property was fine, I can't believe how quickly things changed.

Regarding a Section 21 at the start of the tenancy, how does that work? I issued them with one once before, but they paid up straight away and I stupidly gave them the benefit of the doubt. I thought that a Section 21 was to gain possession of the property giving 2 months notice?!?! I'm probably just being very blonde - sorry!!

As you say it's just a saving grace they are out.

[JMK]

Hi

Like you I would find this problem very annoying. Over the years in my day job I have chased lots of debts of this kind. As a rough idea, a collection rate of around 40% would be considered very good going indeed.

Don't let that put you off though; it tends to be the ones that disappear that are the worst to deal with, simply because tracing agents really arent that good. The best results are achieved when you know where they are and even better if they are in work. It is true that you could end up spending good money chasing after bad, but my own view is that some landlords give up too soon, put off by the apparent complexities, delays and cost.

In reality, the system really is relatively simple, although I have to admit it can be very slow. So, it definitely sounds worth going for a money judgement (court order) to start with. After that you can assess the value of going further, if they dont pay up. Options would include an attachment of earnings order if they are in work, instructing bailiffs to seize their goods, having them "publicly examined" in court so they have to give full details of their income and assets, etc. Each stage costs you a fee - thats the risk element - but the initial stages are relatively cheap when compared with the size of the debt you are owed.

The key to succcess in court is evidence. If they owe arrears, produce very clear comprehensive payment schedules right from the start of the tenancy. For the damage they have caused, provide schedules of condition from before they moved in (ideally including photographs) and full inspection reports of the damage (again including photographs if possible). The repair work should be fully detailed and costed with evidence of expenditure if you have already done the work.

Good luck

Thank you Preston.

Fortunately I have before and after photographs, so I guess thats as strong as it can get. One problem that I have is that they reported a break in at the property!!! After speaking to the police they said that it is very common with tenants trying to get out of damage done by themselves. Mind you the burglar was very thoughtful - he kicked the door in, swept up after himself, locked the door from the inside and then climbed out of the window!! I also have payment schedules from the very begining.

The problem with the 'earnings' side of things is that the tenant works for various farms doing seasonal stuff. But I know for a fact that has pretty much been full time since April. He is saying he is self employed - I'm guessing so he thinks he'll get away with not paying any PAYE & NI. Unfortunately for him - I know most of his employers, so can keep regular tabs!! - the joys of living in a small community, everyone knows what everyone is doing!!

One other question: How far can you go before it is classed as 'harassment'? Admitedly I have tried to call them on several occasions, once when the police couldn't get hold of them. Then I received a text to say they were going to take me to court for harassment and to leave them alone. I have however since spoken to them - when they asked for me to drop their post around!!! And he said he was just stressed that day?!?!

They just seem to know the laws far better than me and that does worry me.

[Preston]

Hi

I dont think they do know more than you, though perhaps they think they do.

They have left the property, so you can't now commit an offence of harassment under the Protection from Eviction Act, If they wanted to take action they would now be falling back on general harassment legislation. This legislation is relatively new and has had a bit of puplicity in the popular press so lots of people now think they can claim harassment to fend off legitimate complaints. This is not an area of the law that I have any direct experience of, but from what my contacts tell me such a view is clearly nonsence.

Essentially, you cant be criticised for trying to enforce your rights in a reasonable and measured fashion. They owe you money and have damaged your property. Provided you are polite and factual, they wont get anywhere claiming harassment if you contact them regularly and ask them to pay up - particularly if they keep telling you they will pay tomorrow or next week. Keep a record of what they say and contact them again - tomorrow or next week - if they dont pay up. Half the battle with some debtors is convincing them that you are serious about pursuing the debt in a professional, legal and determined manner.

Incidentally, was it a joint tenancy? If so, its worth making sure that they both know the situation and the consequences if they dont pay up. Its not always the case, but sometimes one can persuade the other to sort something out.

On the harassment issue by the way, one useful tip whenever you write to them - and its usually worth confirming contact in writing even if you ring first - is to include a line saying something like "if you are in any doubt about your rights or responsibilities you are strongly advised to seek independent legal advice either from a solicitor or from a free advice service such as a Citizens Advice Bureau". Its not the kind of thing that someone wanting to harass a debtor would say and it will reflect favourably on you when and if the correspondence is reviewed in court.

Preston

[JMK]

Hi

I dont think they do know more than you, though perhaps they think they do.

They have left the property, so you can't now commit an offence of harassment under the Protection from Eviction Act, If they wanted to take action they would now be falling back on general harassment legislation. This legislation is relatively new and has had a bit of puplicity in the popular press so lots of people now think they can claim harassment to fend off legitimate complaints. This is not an area of the law that I have any direct experience of, but from what my contacts tell me such a view is clearly nonsence.

Essentially, you cant be criticised for trying to enforce your rights in a reasonable and measured fashion. They owe you money and have damaged your property. Provided you are polite and factual, they wont get anywhere claiming harassment if you contact them regularly and ask them to pay up - particularly if they keep telling you they will pay tomorrow or next week. Keep a record of what they say and contact them again - tomorrow or next week - if they dont pay up. Half the battle with some debtors is convincing them that you are serious about pursuing the debt in a professional, legal and determined manner.

Incidentally, was it a joint tenancy? If so, its worth making sure that they both know the situation and the consequences if they dont pay up. Its not always the case, but sometimes one can persuade the other to sort something out.

On the harassment issue by the way, one useful tip whenever you write to them - and its usually worth confirming contact in writing even if you ring first - is to include a line saying something like "if you are in any doubt about your rights or responsibilities you are strongly advised to seek independent legal advice either from a solicitor or from a free advice service such as a Citizens Advice Bureau". Its not the kind of thing that someone wanting to harass a debtor would say and it will reflect favourably on you when and if the correspondence is reviewed in court.

Preston

Thank you. That is good to know.

Yes is was a joint tenancy. And I do speak to both of them - but I think they are as bad as each other. It's always the other one dealing with it!!! What is really annoying (think I'm probably just a mug!) but they are both quite convincing regarding payment. However nothing ever comes of it.

If I put it into small claims can I do a joint claim? I also assume I can cost in work that myself or husband has done to rectify the damage to the property, plus various tradesman friends. I can get quotes etc.

[Trenners]

Hi JMK,

I issue a Section 21 at the start of every DSS tenancy to show that I am serious regarding getting them evicted if they damage the property or don't pay me the rent or both. I get them to sign the Section 21 before I give them keys to the property.

During the initial 6 month term - if they are turning out to be difficult or not paying rent etc - I simply write to them and state that the tenancy will end after the 6 month term as per the Section 21 notice served at the start of the tenancy.

Mark

[Melboy]

Thank you for your reply.

That is defiately a route I think I should go down - out of interest, does anyone know how effective the small claims court is, or is it just likely to be more hassle for me? They (tenants) strike me as the sort of people who just don't care what is thrown at them.

I know they will just say they have no money and can't pay. Even though I know one of them has been working (I have reported this to the benefits office!).

Thank you again.

By taking legal action to recover the debt whether it works or not you are at least placing a warning against these people for others to stay clear of them. In the short term they may think they are being clever but you and they will never know what the future holds for them by way of trying to obtain credit or mortgage etc. and at least you will have that knowledge that maybe you have stopped another Landlord from experiencing the hassle you have had.

Mel.

Link below.....get started right away!............

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/onlines.../mcol/index.htm

[Preston]

Hi,

In answer to your question yes you can claim against more than one person.

I agree with Melboy that the website he suggests is the best place to start, it contains lots of information and is quite easy to use.

Good luck.

Preston

[JMK]

Hello it's me again!

I need to pick your brains again if that is ok.

Just to fill you in on my on going saga!!

Over the last couple of weeks I have spoken to my tenants on several occasions and we agreed (once again) that they would pay in installments. Needless to say nothing came of it - yes I know I am a mug!!

I wrote to my tenants giving them 7 days to pay both the arrears and the damage done to the property. Today I received a phone call from one of my tenants ranting down the phone to me, telling me that it was an absolute cheek me asking for the money for the damage - I quote ' all it is, is a bit of flippin plaster work and a bit of sanding on the windows'.

After I got him to calm down I explained that had he simply paid the arrears as promised it would have never got to this stage (I was just glad to get rid of them). I pointed out that he told me he was getting £4000 for farm work and his wife was getting £700 back pay ( they both claim all possible benefits including the dole). He then replied that unfortunately for me "there is no paper trail for any of that". And on £94 per week I will only get £1 per week towards the arrears etc - "so take him to court". If I wanted I could call on Friday to collect my first £1!!!

Hopefully one good thing to come out of this is that I recorded the whole phone conversation.

Obviously at the end of this week when the 7 days is up, I will put it into the small claims court. But is it really likely that I will only get £1 per week? I think she may have just started a job so obviouly will be earning.

I also found out that they appear to be very well known by the local police!!

Any thoughts?

Thank you again.

[Melboy]

I can only refer you to my entry written above..............

Mel.

[climbinghigh92]

try getting the councel involved as thay dont like bad publicity when thay have no propertys to rent to them of there own.

[Preston]

But is it really likely that I will only get £1 per week? I think she may have just started a job so obviouly will be earning.

.

Hi

No, I dont think £1 a week is likely, especially if you can get their employment information. So keep going! They are clearly chaotic and think you will be too, so the only way to deal with them is persistence.

Good luck

Preston