randal_bond Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Hello, we are eyeing a spacious flat slightly below market value and with energy rating E. What is E, in some other assessor's report can be F ( bearing in mind new regulations about renting F and G properties from 2019). If we buy it, I think we need to insulate outer walls (two). Is it possible to do it ourselves or we'll have to pay those thousands to do it, which repels the idea of getting a bargain? Generally, we have viewed a few F rating properties, which are relatively inexpensive . But does it make sense to buy them now (the same reasoning as above)? Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 I'd have thought that installing double glazing along with other low cost improvements such as draught proofing, low energy light bulbs, timers, thermostats, loft & tank insulation etc would move the energy rating considerably higher without the need to worry about insulating solid walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randal_bond Posted May 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Thanks for replying. I took time to read energy performance reports (and suggestions on improvement) on several properties I'm interested in. In all of them there's double glazing, anyway. The only big improvement of energy rating is insulating the walls (and cavities, if any). I myself was surprised to learn that installing double-glazed windows throughout won't make that big difference to energy rating. I wonder if I need to steer clear of them. It's just the prices are so attractive. Tempts you, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Personally I would steer clear....but others would see it as an opportunity. In my opinion, if you can't achieve a D or better by installing the items on my list the property isn't worth the hassle. You only need to improve to within the acceptable limits of any new legislation. Remember NOBODY is going to even look at the EPC other than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Message duplication removed - finger trouble, I suspect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 If you want information without a commercial sales pitch for a product, I suggest you consult Energy Saving Trust http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/domestic/content/improving-my-home for straightforward information. Insulating walls has to be considered carefully to avoid introducing new problems that make them worse - recent article in DT Property page about this. Dry lining inside with insulated plasterboard might be most simple for DIY. Filling cavity walls correctly is quite effective, and if a suspended ground floor, rather than solid, it can be insulated underneath with some effect. I concur with Richlist - measures he suggests should be sufficient to raise out of F and G categories. If your E rated flat was de-rated to F by another assessor I would complain and question why. Will proposed Regs have any teeth I wonder? Tenants don't generally read EPCs unless there's a benefit grant on their horizon. EPCs only state building's potential situation, according to assessor. EPCs have little bearing on how property energy is actually consumed (or wasted) by occupiers. For example - my own house has installed measures for D or maybe even C or better, but according to weekly usage measurements submitted a few years ago to www.iMeasure.org.uk it actually performed week by week as E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Energy consumption can hold a few surprises. My own property is insulated to within an inch of its life. Normal daily average electricity consumption is 12kWh but when we are away daily average consumption is still around 8kWh. It came as something of a surprise that our presence only equated to 4kWh per day (cooking, dishwasher, wash machine, extra lighting, tv, shower pumps, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 RL: That's interesting. How do you heat your house? Not by electricity? Your figures look typical for daily average electricity, but not including heating. I would expect 30kWh to 80kWh d.a. over year for home heating, depending on seasonal ambient, number of rooms, occupants, etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 We have gas central heating & hot water. Annual costs are £560 electric & £620 gas / £100 month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randal_bond Posted May 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 I am only worried about rating because I think from 2019 landlords won't be able to rent properties with energy ratings F and below. Am I right? Of course, tenants won't be happy about high bills (I see it's not always the case). I myself rented a property long time ago, where as soon as you turn off the radiators, it gets cold within half an hour. It can have bearing on having long-term tenants. But, as I said, my main concern is my inability to rent such property in a few years, not what tenants think. Thank you for all rplies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 I believe the rules are from 2018 homes rated e or worse cannot be rented. The 2019 rule is for all new property to be zero emission. With so much modern property around why buy yourself a headache ? Property is usually cheap for a reason e.g. needs serious renovation/ refurbishment, has a short lease or in your case needs thousands to meet legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Encouraging private landlords, if they can afford it, to invest in and upgrade energy performance of marginal properties must surely be good both for occupants and planet. But EPC ratings are only approximate - anyone can save energy and similarly anyone can waste it, whatever the EPC installation grade. My understanding is that any significant installed improvement to an F or G would be likely to bring it within the proposed legal minimum rentable quality of E. RL: Your gas heating, assuming 4.5p/kWh, is about 37kWh daily average over year - probably better than national average for UK households. Your 8kWh electric energy consumed whilst away is 333Watts of continuous power. Not really very much. Could just be total of freezer, fridge, security lights, pumps, controls, chargers, telephone,TV standby? etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I look at it this way - if you supply a well insulated property and assuming reasonable heating bills a well chosen tenant will stay. This works for me as my average stay is 3 years currently. I have done a lot of dry lining as suggested by Chestnut in some 1970/80s properties with great effect. Yes it costs a bit and the need of a plasterer for a day but the results are well worth it. It's all very well buying a cheap flat that costs ££££s to heat but will the tenants stay - no! Also flats like this are a condensation nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Chestnut, Yes you are pretty much spot on. Daily average gas use is 40kWh @ 4.2p/kWh Note: 1. I do have a small wood burner which probably saves a bit on gas heating bills.....would definitely recommend. 2. I have a hot tub which runs 24/7 & this consumes around 2 kWh/day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 How relevant. I'm sure all tenants aspire to running a hot tub from their freezing cold, condensation and mould ridden garrets Richlist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 In my rented flat I installed double glazing and new back door and front door in UPVc. Now the tenant complains of damp mould on 2 of the walls. Never had it before. This is what happens when you seal a box up airtight and tenant's do not seem to understand why you don't dry wet clothes indoors !!! Argggggh !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I have always found that the younger the tenants there is less likelyhood that they understand condensation, what causes it, & how to avoid it. It's not taught in school or college and if it's their first foray away from parents home they won't have a clue especially if they are renting a flat with no garden. It's imperative that landlords are proactive and inform their tenants about the dangers for them of not taking adequate precautions to minimise condensation. Tenants that cause damage through condensation will probably be charged for redecorating. There are some good, well written, free booklets available to give to each tenant so they've no excuses if damage becomes evident. Alternatively, to reduce the risk further set a realistic age limit. It seems to work for me......nobody under 25 rents from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randal_bond Posted May 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 I look at it this way - if you supply a well insulated property and assuming reasonable heating bills a well chosen tenant will stay. This works for me as my average stay is 3 years currently. I have done a lot of dry lining as suggested by Chestnut in some 1970/80s properties with great effect. Yes it costs a bit and the need of a plasterer for a day but the results are well worth it. It's all very well buying a cheap flat that costs ££££s to heat but will the tenants stay - no! Also flats like this are a condensation nightmare. It's a very timely reminder for me. I came to the same conclusion with my other flats, but somehow forgot. Our tenants also comment on low heating bills. I bother with these flats because it looks that even with plasterboarding it will come out quite a bit cheaper than if you buy a flat with a high energy rating. Mortitia, what is dry lining? Is it some special plaster boards? Is it a one day job? Does it usually raise energy rating one letter up or more? How much are you looking at for plastering two biggish walls (5.4m and 3.8 m wide)? If you could also point me to this discussion about dry lining? I can't find it. Sorry for so many questions and will be very grateful if you find time to answer them. Yes, I plan to insulate the walls first and only then to rent the place out. It needs some repainting, anyway. I don't think it's very clever to part with the money you can save. In addition, I like properties that are ever so slightly underdone because they are cheaper and I can put this personal final touch on them. Thanks to everybody who replied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Put 'insulated plasterboard' into google - it's all there - with diagrams. I use Kingspan and Cellertex myself with 100mm insulation. Assuming flat walls just measure up and attach. Plaster over the board. Skirtings and door surrounds and electrical sockets may need extra attention but most outside walls are just that with maybe a window. You need a chippy to apply the board - 1 day should do it and then plasterer 1 day to finish then decorate when dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedgy34 Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hi guys I'm a landlord myself I can assist in advice or help in epcs & gdars, getting your property to a D or above as the new laws come out in 3 yrs time My company is involved in green deal and a good scheme for landlords to improve the energy rating at no cost to yourselves for your rented portfolio. It doesn't matter where you are in the UK I can help you. We also can help with 0% finance if you need a boiler etc Or help with the RHI too You can email me For more info on : info@ecogreendealscheme.co.uk We are on Facebook and Twitter Website going live very soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedgy34 Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hi guys I'm a landlord myself I can assist in advice or help in epcs & gdars, getting your property to a D or above as the new laws come out in 3 yrs time My company is involved in green deal and a good scheme for landlords to improve the energy rating at no cost to yourselves for your rented portfolio. It doesn't matter where you are in the UK I can help you. We also can help with 0% finance if you need a boiler etc Or help with the RHI too You can email me For more info on : info@ecogreendealscheme.co.uk We are on Facebook and Twitter Website going live very soon. Ecotrust ltd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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