Gas Flue Inspection Hatches or Void Monitors?

[flueinvoidsolutions]

Since January 1st 2013, all properties with a concealed Flue In Void situation require gas boiler flue inspection hatches or a Carbon Monoxide Void Monitoring System to be installed.

This is to ensure that Gas Safe Engineers can either visually inspect the entire length of the concealed flue or be sure that the entire void is being monitored for Carbon Monoxide leakage by a wireless sensor(s) which will send an RF signal to a control unit to shut off a faulty boiler if it detects CO.

There are Pro's and Con's for each.
Has anyone had them fitted ?
hat did they cost and is everyone using Fire Rated hatches as specified by Building Regulations Document J?

[Melboy]

Viewers reading this topic may also be interested in the Q&A from Gassafe if they have any concerns.

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/advice/flues_in_voids/frequently_asked_questions.aspx#18

[Mrs Tara Plumbing]

The big down side to:

Carbon Monoxide Void Monitoring System

is that it is only a temporary measure.

When the boiler is replaced you can't continue with this system. Inspection hatches and CO alarms in every rom that the void runs through become compulsory.

If you have recently had a new boiler, however, a good brand and a bit of luck it could be still going well in 15 years time. All the rules may well have changed about 15 times in that time!

[flueinvoidsolutions]

It is agreed that COSSVM (Carbon Monoxide Safety Shut Off Void Monitor) systems are "temporary" but with a seven year battery life, the NoCO Void Monitors may well outlast some boilers. Now that they are a Gas Safe and cross-industry committee approved alternative to flue inspection hatches, they will also allow property owners to buy a gas appliance maintenance contract, which will allow the repair, maintenance and service of most boilers for a long time. No boiler replacement means no need for inspection hatches.

The other main benefit to the NoCO - voids are monitored by a CO Sensor 365 days a year, 24 hours a day.

A gas inspection hatch allows visual inspection of the flue pipe on probably no more than 1 day a year. A flue which looks fine today might not be tomorrow.

[Richlist]

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.

The property on my left is rented and has a valid gas safety certificate.

The property on my right is privately owned & occupied and hasn't had a gas service or inspection for 10 years

See if you can work out which one is more likely to present a problem ?

Why don't we sort out the existing anomolies before introducing more safegaurds ?

[flueinvoidsolutions]

I would sat that the main difference between the flat on the left and the one on the right is the Landlord's legal obligation to provide a CP12 annually.

I haven’t had inspection hatches fitted. What does this mean for me?

If your gas engineer cannot examine the whole length of the flue they will advise you, in line with industry guidance, that it is 'At Risk', recommend that you do not use it and will ask your permission to turn it off. This is assuming that there are no other indications that your boiler is not safe, regardless of the unknown condition of the flue.

'At risk' is a risk classification used by gas engineers and means that your boiler and flue system could become dangerous in the future, in this case it is used because the engineer cannot examine the length of the flue to confirm it is safe. As a consumer you are within your rights to refuse permission for it to be turned off, however you will be asked to sign paperwork to confirm you accept responsibility for those defects identified in the system – in this case, the potential for fumes to escape unnoticed from the concealed flue into the property.

Your gas engineer can continue to work on your boiler including servicing it and undertaking maintenance work.

If you have had your boiler serviced since January 2011, your gas engineer should have made you aware of the need for inspection hatches, giving you time to consider what action to take.

Owner-occupiers:
The law has not changed. What has changed is guidance to gas engineers in relation to them being able to examine the flue. There is no legal duty on you to have inspection hatches or other controls installed. If you choose not to have them, you should continue to have your boiler serviced and checked every year by a Gas Safe registered engineer who will advise that it is ‘At Risk’ (see above).

If you choose not to have inspection hatches fitted, Industry has developed a safety system which can monitor the void through which the flue runs for carbon monoxide. This system will cause the boiler to be shutdown if and when carbon monoxide is detected. Your registered gas engineer will be able to provide you with further information on these systems. Inspection hatches remain the preferred option but the safety shut down system does afford you with a level of protection against an undetected failure of the flue.

Fitting carbon monoxide alarms are also a good second line of defence but are no replacement for an engineer being able to inspect the length of the flue.

Landlords:
You are required, by law, to have an annual gas safety check carried out, by a registered engineer, on every gas appliance you provide and on any flue/chimney. Additionally landlords are required to ensure that gas fittings and flues are maintained in a safe condition. These duties require the gas engineer to be able to examine the flue to check that it is safe. Repositioning the boiler or the flue is an option, but if this is not viable, inspection hatches are currently the recommended means by which an engineer can adequately examine along the length of a concealed flue.

I have heard that there could be alternatives to having hatches fitted. Is this true?
Visual examination checks by engineers via inspection hatches is currently the preferred method recommended by the industry guidance that explains how to judge that a flue is working safely and effectively. However, where inspection hatches are not practicable industry has developed a safety system which is able to monitor the void for the presence of carbon monoxide and which cause the boiler to shut down if it is detected.

[Richlist]

So why are there separate rules & legislation for tenants & owner occupiers?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/35m-risk-carbon-monoxide-015957731.html#MbEAN1H

[Richlist]

So why are there separate rules & legislation for tenants & owner occupiers?

No response ?

OK.....it wasn't a fair question really.

I guess your as mystified as I am.....and as you're probably not one of the clowns that makes judgement on this ridiculous legislation, your not to blame for it either.

[flueinvoidsolutions]

"The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 specifically deal with the installation, maintenance and use of gas appliances, fittings and flues

in domestic and certain commercial premises. They place duties on certain landlords to ensure that gas appliances, fittings and flues provided for tenants’

use are safe.

These duties to protect tenants’ safety are in addition to the more general ones that landlords have under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and the

Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999.

What are my main duties as a landlord?

You are required to:

• ensure gas fittings and flues are maintained in a safe condition. Gas appliances should be serviced in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. If these are not available it is recommended that they are serviced annually unless advised otherwise by a Gas Safe registered engineer;

• ensure an annual safety check is carried out on each gas appliance/flue. Before any new lease starts, you must make sure that these checks have been carried out within one year before the start of the lease date, unless the appliances in the property have been installed for less than 12 months, in which case they should be checked within 12 months of their installation date;
  
• have all installation, maintenance and safety checks carried out by a Gas Safe registered engineer;

The majority of Landlord's let their properties out for profit and as such there are certain rules we must abide by for the protection of our tenants

Tenants don't get to choose whether they will have inspection hatches fitted or not. CO Void Monitoring systems installed or not. Landlords do.
Tenants are owed a duty of care from us as Landlords.

What we choose to do in our own homes with regard to the health and safety of ourselves and our families is a decision we can make for ourselves and accept responsibility for any consequences which may or may not occur.

[Richlist]

I don't agree.

Owner occupiers should be subject to the same set of rules as tenants.

Many of the points you make are just not valid.

[flueinvoidsolutions]

I agree that it would be less confusing if the rules applied to all of us but from a legal standpoint as Landlords, my previous points are where we are.

[Chestnut]

Richlist: I agree with your obvious point about safety.

I assume the gas regulation for tenancies is because tenants are paying landlords for a safe home. In our own homes we still have choice to live with this potential hazard.

(I presume you also agree we should all wear seatbelts in our own cars.... I recall objections to 'personal freedom' at the time that law was introduced.)

[flueinvoidsolutions]

It may well be worth sharing though, your thoughts on which points I made you don't feel are valid.

[Richlist]

I assume the gas regulation for tenancies is because tenants are paying landlords for a safe home. In our own homes we still have choice to live with this potential hazard.

But thats not how it works in reality. Owner occupiers have visitors, guests, lodgers formal & informal, rent a room opportunities etc. What about their safety ? What about neighbours.....I don't particularly want to live next door to an owner occupier who hasn't had his gas appliances serviced for a number of years.

The majority of Landlord's let their properties out for profit and as such there are certain rules we must abide by for the protection of our tenants

No. The rules don't exist because landlords let property for profit, they exist for safety purposes

Tenants are owed a duty of care from us as Landlords.

If thats the case then everyone else is owed a duty of care by owner occupiers. If legislation exists for landlords it should also exist for everyone else.

What we choose to do in our own homes with regard to the health and safety of ourselves and our families is a decision we can make for ourselves and accept responsibility for any consequences which may or may not occur.

That might be good enough for you but its not good enough for me.

I could pay someone a visit and die because people like you think its ok for the general public to please themselves if they have a gas safety check.

[flueinvoidsolutions]

Richlist : you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick

I have sought opinions and thought on the laws and regulations as they stand and as they apply differently to properties which are tenanted or owner-occupied.

In my opinion, the rules need to be simpler and the same for both types of residents.

My thread was to discuss the pro's and con's of gas inspection hatches versus Carbon Monoxide Safety Shut Off Void Monitoring Systems.

I do understand that a gas boiler and associated flue pipe(s) don't differentiate between tenants and owner-occupiers.

[Richlist]

I'm aware of the initial subject of the thread but couldn't help but respond to your posts.

Funnily enough I'm thinking that its you who has the wrong end of the stick.

I'd suggest it rather vulgar to be discussing the relative merits of new CO safety rules whilst millions of occupiers around the country remain at risk because current laws don't require basic gas appliance safety checks to be carried out in their properties.

[flueinvoidsolutions]

The posts are not my opinions - they are the current regulations and Gas Safe guidelines.

The guidelines for gas flue inspection hatches or carbon monoxide safety shut off void monitoring systems DO APPLY TO EVERYONE who has a concealed room sealed fanned-draught boiler and flue system (flue in void)

The fact of the matter is that it is only Landlord's who are forced to act as they need to provide an annual Gas Safety Certificate to satisfy their legal obligations.

[Chestnut]

I do agree it's the same safety hazard for all; tenants and owner-occupiers.

But actual risk involves probability as well as hazard. Whoever made this law may have concluded from statistical history that tenanted property has significantly higher probability of gas accident than owner occupied. I don't know.

Next time I have a party invitation, should I ask to see the host's gas certificate first before accepting?

[Richlist]

Next time I have a party invitation, should I ask to see the host's gas certificate first before accepting?

No not necessary............it seems the existance of a gas certificate isn't really that important !!!

What really matters is that you check that their 'gas flue inspection hatches or carbon monoxide safety shut off void monitoring systems' are up to date.