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Replacement Boiler

19 posts in this topic

Posted · Report post

An 11 year old boiler has become too unreliable so I intend to replace.

Previously I have installed a boiler all but for the gas connection. It's my understanding that only a Gas Safe chappy can affect the gas integrity, so the water and electric are ok for the likes of me to deal with ??

My aim would be to isolate at the boilers gas valve, therefore the gas integrity hasn't been affected when the boilers gas connection is disconnected. The Gas Safe Engineer would then be required to connect to the new boiler.

I understand there are exemptions to condensing boilers being the only choice. I think my situation wouldn't allow for an exemption but I'll ask anyway.

I could allow the condenser drain to drain into stone at the side of the house outside, is this permissible or must it drain into a drain rather than soak away ?

For the condensation to drain into a drain is awkward but vaguely possible, would this serve as a suitable reason for exemption from requiring a condensing boiler ?

All pointers and corrections appreciated.

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Posted · Report post

There is more to a safe and reliable installation then you are suggesting COR.

Prior to fitting any boiler now the CH system must be flushed professionally otherwise your boiler guarantee will be invalid. Condensing boilers are now so sensitive to system sludge and debris that the manufacture's insist on a flush from a Gasafe installer prior to any new installation with a certificate of proof.

Would we sign off a boiler you have installed or indeed anyone else? Simply answer is no and I don't know of any other installer in my location that would do so either.

It is not just a simple matter of connecting a gas connection. The whole boiler system must be certified such as gas pressures, system pressures and correct boiler fluing and installation and the Gasafe person is signing all of these things off as being safe for purpose.

Positoning of the condensate drain will not exempt you from fitting a condensing boiler. It has to go to drain away and preferably on the inside of the property.

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Posted · Report post

Thanks for the input Mel,

I am concerning myself with the legalities of the installation.

If I employ a Gas Safe Engineer to install I can see that he may need to price for relocation of the boiler. This would be to the other side of the kitchen so a drain can be used for the condensate. I then need to pay for an electrician to do as I am more than capable of.

The engineer will power flush, While I don't power flush I do flush and each rad separately. Adding the inhibitor isn't rocket science.

This boiler was installed with a 22mm feed 11 years ago. I can see the value in having the pressure checked.

The choice is to have the system installed and certified at a cost of £3k upwards,

this would then have manufacturers G'tees and be compliant with local authority regs come sale time.

Alternatively I do it myself 'cowboy' style and depending which boiler I buy the cost is closer to £600,

post install I arrange for a gas inspection.

I realise that in our 'you must or we will hang you' society this is not proper but would I be legal ?

Doing the job myself, safely, I can buy 4 more boilers if this one turns out to be naff within the 2 years a manufacturer would warranty.

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Posted · Report post

I realise that in our 'you must or we will hang you' society this is not proper but would I be legal ?

Any new electrical installations in kitchens (+ bathrooms, + outside the property).....such as a re-located boiler.....need to be installed & electrically certificated by a Part 'P' qualified electrician.

Are you Part 'P' qualified ?

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Posted · Report post

£3000 for a boiler change? Not here it isn't.

You could have the proper qualified Gasafe installation carried out for around £2000 or less depending which boiler you choice....a Rolls Royce or a Ford Escort.

All boiler installers must be Part P qualified for electrical work....my Son is so he does all his own electrical work and it is amazing what he finds wrong on his boiler servicing rounds as well when carrying out Landlord's certificates.

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Posted · Report post

Boilers are not rocket science, all the science bit has been done before you get hold of it! You need to find someone who will connect up and 'commission' the boiler after you have installed it and unless you have a good relationship with a gas safe engineer that would be difficult.

I have installed a handful of boilers over the years, there is nothing to them, they come with full instructions. Cold water in, hot water out, exhaust, condensate, electrics. Strange how a gas 'engineer' can get away with charging around £1,000 for half a day to a days labour when fitting a boiler. As long as they are fitted in exact accordance with the manufacturers instructions, my guy charges me £60 to connect up and commission, around about an hours work. Cowboy style? don't be too hard on yourself, my guy tells me my installations are amongst the best he has ever seen.

11 years for a boiler, absolutely disgraceful, should get at least 15 years life from such an appliance. never be tempted to change an old functioning boiler for a new 'efficient' boiler. Shoot me down in flames if you like ref being green or not, new boilers are a total con and until they are built to a decent quality I steer clear of them whenever possible.

I first found out about my boiler installing skills when the boiler went in my home on a Christmas eve morning and this being Scotland, all the trades are off for 3 weeks and I was not going to pay the rip off British Gas price of almost £4,000! By Christmas day morning I had completed it, CORGI mate connected the gas etc, toasty.

Good luck with it, as ever it's important to know and admit to your own limitations.

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Posted · Report post

I have a boiler that is now 23 years old.....Potterton Netaheat.

Its built to last at least another 23 years. All the spares are readily available. Only 3 major items to go wrong and each item has been replaced once .....so far.....at £200 a time.

New boilers will never last as long so I'm keeping the one I allready have.

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Posted · Report post

I can count 10 boilers I've fitted, there maybe a couple more. That includes system, combi and nowadays condensing. As you can imagine there are complete central heating systems and re plumbs done, enough to help me develop a few skills. A trained and experienced plumber would run rings round me though with knowledge and speed.

"Cowboy" was being a bit sarcy as it's the common accusation toward a wannbe plumber, or "his mother slept with one" type jive.

It would be foolish to not realise that some knowledge, and without training, can result in deficiencies that could 'feasibly' result in potential risk or danger. I see the gas inspection as covering that risk.

This not so Ideal combi I fitted 11 years ago has always been cr*p. Recommended by a mate when he fitted one I believed. His was cr*p too, as is their reputation. Disgusting true, but life.

Right now I would favour a Biasi Riva condensing boiler unless I am told they're naff too, one I fitted 3 years ago has been doing well though.

With further thought I've remembered that the soil pipe is in the opposite corner to the boiler. Internal and nicely and neatly boxed in it hasn't been seen in the 11 years but I remember where it exits the bathroom, so one issue solved.

The boiler can now be sited in the same position and as it's more than 3 metre from the kitchen sink the like for like electrical swap isn't notifiable under Part P. The independent RCCB protected cct was installed pre Jan 05 so didn't require inspection then either.

I aim to get a couple of quotes and then consider the next move, but the boiler retired permanently so there is some urgency. I'm lucky to have 'very' reasonable T's.

My concern was where I might fall foul of the legalities and thanks for input there.

Any inconvenience or additional expense isn't the end of the world but as a business man i hope to avoid. But having an inspector with his dripping nose and plastic degree causing me to raise a defence is more than I would like with my lazy nature though. Good luck Axil.

Winge time-

I've been trained to become competent to intall, maintain and inspect many varying types of technical kit on offshore platforms, gas platforms mainly. I'm not deemed competent to carry out domestic installations unless I pay for more certificates (as I arrogantly believe the training will serve limited purpose) and pay dosh to the NIC.

I'm in agreement that the claimed 16% energy saving of a condensing boiler is dubious, as is increased road taxing of gas guzzling cars that pay at the pumps anyway, much of these political drives have questionable purpose but all cost us money.

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Posted · Report post

My mother had a Biasi and it was not good.

I am under the impression that any 'new' electrical installation in a kitchen......irrespective of its distance from a sink......is required to be part P certified.

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Posted · Report post

With limited exceptions all 'new' installations are notifiable.

The majority (not all) electrical works in a kitchen are notifiable.

In an open plan environment, and this is a kitchen / diner, a kitchen is deemed to extend to 3 metres from the edge of the sink. I wouldn't like to say, without further research, if the drainer part is kitchen sink or not, that is where to measure from if there is a s/s drainer.

This is an exchange of appliance, the cct is existing so not a new electrical installation. Even if in the area of the kitchen I would view this as very similar to exchanging an electric cooker, that's not notifiable either.

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Posted · Report post

Surely if you are moving the boiler location to the other side of the kitchen then the electrical supply for the boiler controls will need to be extended and run to the new location. This is therefore not a like for like replacement, will involve cable extensions and will undoubtedly fall foul of the electrical regulations should you carry out the work yourself.

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Posted · Report post

Surely if you are moving the boiler location to the other side of the kitchen then the electrical supply for the boiler controls will need to be extended and run to the new location. This is therefore not a like for like replacement, will involve cable extensions and will undoubtedly fall foul of the electrical regulations should you carry out the work yourself.

With further thought I've remembered that the soil pipe is in the opposite corner to the boiler. Internal and nicely and neatly boxed in it hasn't been seen in the 11 years but I remember where it exits the bathroom, so one issue solved.

The boiler can now be sited in the same position

I'm going to have to learn how to quote on this site.

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Posted · Report post

Strange how a gas 'engineer' can get away with charging around £1,000 for half a day to a days labour when fitting a boiler.

Not round here they are not. I have fitted more boilers than anyone else on this forum and I can tell you for a fact that there is more to it than just a few quick connections and away you go pick up a £1000. Our average boiler replacements work out at around £1800... more if you want a really top quality boiler

Now I shall butt out of this discussion because everyone has a view on the subject but before I go let me just give you a few facts re- my Son's training and experience.

4 year apprenticeship with Heating and Ventilation UK

College training

Manufactures courses plus update training with nearly all the major boiler manufacture's over many years.

Inspections by Gassafe on work carried out plus every 5 years recertification which requires a 4 day refresher course which costs him £150 for each certification.

£4000 of tools and equipment plus £10,000 van. Tax/insurance/maintenance.

The list is endless for Gasesafe engineers and the overheads are high.....5 million public liabilty insurance it goes on and on.

So people just think the honest tradesperson fully qualified is running a business not a charity oh! and not forgetting 18 years experience in the trade.

We see all sorts of things on our home visits and believe you me there are some dangerous installations out there and landlord's should never take that risk or else they will end up like the Scottish Landlord recently who was sentenced to 5 years in jail for installing his own soon-to-be-defective boiler and he killed his tenant with the CO fumes in the process.

So that's my take on it all and with that I shall retire from this topic.

Mel.

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Posted · Report post

Don't but out Mel you have relevant and worth while input.

My own personal view is that I have no problem paying my money to an honest tradesman that does the right job at the going rate. Learning what the going rate is is usually by comparison of quotes. A problem that we've seen on here is that we don't know the final product quality until the commitment has been made.

I have become cynical as over the years I've had the multiple quotes, negotiated the works for the result to be naff, not plumbing so much as other trades.

There is then the arguments, often threats, and more often effort required to finish to a reasonable standard that has already been negotiated.

This taught me that it's often cheaper, faster and less stressful to just get it done myself.

I wouldn't want to put anyone (even the pillock t's) at risk so look to prevent that.

As peed off as I might be to pay £1k+ for work I feel able to do if that's the way it goes then tough on me.

If your son operated in Nth Wales I'm sure I would be happy to pay my money to him, there are many over there I'm not happy to pay.

Isn't a purpose of the gas inspection to identify faulty installations. If we buy a property 'ready to go' an inspection cert is all we would look for pre let.

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Posted · Report post

Biasi Boliers have a reputation for being cheap and nasty, I guess in the main you get what you pay for. I have installed a Viessmann Vitodens 100w compact in my home last year, only about £250 dearer than the cheapos, but worth it for the peace of mind in my opinion. Childs play to insatll, Stainless steel heat exchanger with 10 year guarantee, 5 year guarantee for the rest of it. Typical, fiendishly simple and effective german engineering and not afraid to back it up with generous warranty. Ive always been impressed with german engineering, ever since reading as a young lad that the Messerschmit 109e had a fuel injected engine whereas the Spitfire......yep, you've guessed it had carburretors! a device so ancient that even my spellchecker doesn't recognise the word!

I'm totally in tune with Mels post, I would never advise anyone to operate outside the law. Hence my caveat, make sure you know and accept your own limitations. and use a gas safe engineer for connection and commissioning, and make sure electrical work meets with the regs.

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Posted · Report post

Update,

it feels like I'm between a rock and a hard place here.

I rang 3 Gas Safe Engineers for quotes, only one responded but seemed to fit the bill.

A quote for a Worcestor 28i Junior fitted and certified for £1,775 doesn't seem OTT but the work involved does.

He insists the boiler should be moved 90 degrees onto another wall, for ease of servicing. This would leave a hole where the old flue is now.

He has quoted for replacing the lock shields and rad stats saying after 5 years in Nth Wales the existing won't be any good. That surprises me, has anyone heard of the TRV's going u/s after some years use ?

Full flush and 5 litres additive at finish.

Electrics down to me.

He can fit in 2 weeks, so T's would be w/o a system for that long.

No surprise that he has no interest to gas up and commission someone else's work, my thought to speed things up.

Any further discussion as to why the boiler need be repositioned feels like there would be a "ah forget it" response.

More quotes, if achieved, will take more time. Historically I have found it difficult to find good, reliable, and honest tradesmen in the area. The best I found retired as the bureaucracy became too much for him, I can associate with that.

Thoughts anyone ?

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Posted · Report post

Update,

it feels like I'm between a rock and a hard place here.

I rang 3 Gas Safe Engineers for quotes, only one responded but seemed to fit the bill.

A quote for a Worcestor 28i Junior fitted and certified for £1,775 doesn't seem OTT but the work involved does.

He insists the boiler should be moved 90 degrees onto another wall, for ease of servicing. This would leave a hole where the old flue is now.

He has quoted for replacing the lock shields and rad stats saying after 5 years in Nth Wales the existing won't be any good. That surprises me, has anyone heard of the TRV's going u/s after some years use ?

Full flush and 5 litres additive at finish.

Electrics down to me.

He can fit in 2 weeks, so T's would be w/o a system for that long.

No surprise that he has no interest to gas up and commission someone else's work, my thought to speed things up.

Any further discussion as to why the boiler need be repositioned feels like there would be a "ah forget it" response.

More quotes, if achieved, will take more time. Historically I have found it difficult to find good, reliable, and honest tradesmen in the area. The best I found retired as the bureaucracy became too much for him, I can associate with that.

Thoughts anyone ?

You would only reposition the boiler to meet the latest installation safety standards as laid down not for ease of servicing..... whatever that means?

We always brick up old flue holes with matching exterior bricks where possible and surface skim interior plaster.

We do all our own electrics.

We do most boiler changes in 2 days.

We are always busy! :D

Why do you want to replace rad valves if they are working and OK??

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Posted · Report post

Thanks for that Mel.

Before deciding the guy is silly I was hoping the likes of yourself with greater experience might show his comments to have reason.

I don't see anything wrong with the present location of the boiler, or I wouldn't have sited it there 11 years ago. Aside from the flue issue where it is allows for there to be more space for a dining table rather than clouting one's head when standing up.

Reading the installation instructions I see that the 28i requires 5mm clearance each side, I guess it's designed to fit into a 500 kitchen cupboard, and would comfortably. So I assume the boiler is designed to be serviceable from the front,

would there be issue with this in practice ?

With thought 2 elbows and the new boiler in new position could use the existing flu hole.

He believes that boilers and now TRV's have a 5 year life due to local water content. My boiler next door seems to be doing ok since June 2003 (same crappy Ideal).

I've no reason to believe that the TRV's have gone u/s but I don't test them either, so it's possible,...... maybe.

Is there experience of boilers and TRV's having problems as he says ? From your response so far I guess not.

He will take a day or maybe 2 to swap boilers, but not for 2 weeks, hey ho.

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Posted · Report post

Is there experience of boilers and TRV's having problems as he says ? From your response so far I guess not.

No not that I am aware of. The only time there is a problem is when say a combination boiler is fitted in place of a gravity fed boiler. The greater system pressure of a combination boiler can cause leaks at the TRV's and lockshields.

There is a ruling which is ignored that on installing a new boiler any radiators that do not have TRV's fitted must have them fitted. This is generally ignored as most customers don't believe you and think you are touting for extra work.....which we are not.

My own TRV's have been installed for 12 years and they still work just fine.

There is no problem with servicing a 28i in a 500mm cupboard.

We always fit a Magnaclean unit now to ALL boiler refits.

http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&q=magnaclean+filter&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=991&bih=509&wrapid=tlif133326924260510&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9786532277516747506&sa=X&ei=ARN4T66WO9SJhQelm9nJDQ&ved=0CI4BEPMCMAI#

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