Buffer bear Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Good morning, I would like to know if anyone has experienced a similiar problem and if so, what they did about it? Also, as most will know, the situation below will illustrate how important it is to have the necessary legal agreements in place to avoid additional emotional stress at such a sad time. The matter regards my mother who sadly passed away. She was a landlady. The tenant does not have a written tenancy agreement but I believe he is an assured tenant as he states he has resided in the property since 1995. The problem we have is that he will not produce his rent book but we need to know how much rent he was paying and we also need to confirm the length of his tenancy. We have been alerted that the tenant had rent arrears but we can not confirm this due to the above. In this case, am I right to believe that it is the beneficiaries to prove the arrears, which clearly is difficult without the rent book. We are aware that unless there are mandatory grounds to evict, (such as arrears) we can not ask the tenant to leave so I feel this may be the tenants motivation not to produce the rent book. Also, if we chose to sell the property, we are are aware we would need to reflect this in the value of the house. Is it fair to say that tenancy would reduce the value significantly? I look forward to your comments but not those scolding my mother for not having her business in place. We have instructed solicitors so once I have their view I will post it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Hi......In this case you were right to instruct legal solicitors because you need expert legal advice for this case. My general thoughts are that if the property owner dies then the tenancy contract ceases especially if the property has to be sold... ie...... to pay for death duties etc. Let us know how you get on please. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Hi SK My sympathies over the death of your mother. An interesting case and I agree with Mel about taking legal advice. It is quite unusual today to come across tenants with rent books especially if they have an AST. I don't see how he/she can be an assured tenant if there is no agreement. Maybe this was just a casual arrangement and it may be hard to prove otherwise especially if the tenant is unco-operative. Something tells me they know what they are doing - distressing as it is. I would be inclined to forget any alleged arrears as these will be small fry in relation to the value of the property and it would seem that you don't have the documetation to back up these claims. This may hold up the granting of probate though I don't think this case will be concluded speedily. Concentrate on getting the tenant out with the aid of the solicitor by giving notice as you are correct in thinking that selling the property with the tenant in place will seriously reduce the market value. Proving that this person was a tenant and not just a guest should be the first stage and if necessary asking for a reasonable rent immediately for their present accommodation. This will establish a tenancy that could then be terminated some time in the future I would argue. Many years ago in 1979 I was a tenant with a rent book and no AST in a large property converted into 3 flats when the landlady died. She had left her estate to the Little Sisters of the Poor. The other tenants gradually moved out and I stayed paying my rent monthly at the landlady's solicitors office. The solicitor regularly sent me notices to quit but I knew via the Citizens Advice Bureau I did not have to go - I did find these letters intimidating though. An older colleague advised me that the Sisters via a solicitor may pay me to leave eventually. They did after I suggested it to them and that was the deposit on my first house. Could this be what the unco-operative tenant is waiting for? In 1979 I got £660 and my first house purchase cost £6000 - ah those were the days. Good luck with this and keep us posted. Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffer bear Posted December 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Hi......In this case you were right to instruct legal solicitors because you need expert legal advice for this case. My general thoughts are that if the property owner dies then the tenancy contract ceases especially if the property has to be sold... ie...... to pay for death duties etc. Let us know how you get on please. Mel. Thank you Mel. As far as I understand, if the tenant has an assured tenancy I am limited in what I can do in terms of seeking possession unless they have rent arrears etc. Hi SK My sympathies over the death of your mother. An interesting case and I agree with Mel about taking legal advice. It is quite unusual today to come across tenants with rent books especially if they have an AST. I don't see how he/she can be an assured tenant if there is no agreement. Maybe this was just a casual arrangement and it may be hard to prove otherwise especially if the tenant is unco-operative. Something tells me they know what they are doing - distressing as it is. I would be inclined to forget any alleged arrears as these will be small fry in relation to the value of the property and it would seem that you don't have the documetation to back up these claims. This may hold up the granting of probate though I don't think this case will be concluded speedily. Concentrate on getting the tenant out with the aid of the solicitor by giving notice as you are correct in thinking that selling the property with the tenant in place will seriously reduce the market value. Proving that this person was a tenant and not just a guest should be the first stage and if necessary asking for a reasonable rent immediately for their present accommodation. This will establish a tenancy that could then be terminated some time in the future I would argue. Many years ago in 1979 I was a tenant with a rent book and no AST in a large property converted into 3 flats when the landlady died. She had left her estate to the Little Sisters of the Poor. The other tenants gradually moved out and I stayed paying my rent monthly at the landlady's solicitors office. The solicitor regularly sent me notices to quit but I knew via the Citizens Advice Bureau I did not have to go - I did find these letters intimidating though. An older colleague advised me that the Sisters via a solicitor may pay me to leave eventually. They did after I suggested it to them and that was the deposit on my first house. Could this be what the unco-operative tenant is waiting for? In 1979 I got £660 and my first house purchase cost £6000 - ah those were the days. Good luck with this and keep us posted. Mortitia Thank you Mortitia. From my research, I understand that regardless of whether there is a written tenancy agreement or not, if the tenant has been in occupation / paying rent from the dates stated, the tenancy becomes an assured tenancy. Obtaining the rent book is a priority (not the claiming of arrears) as if they are in arrears (8 weeks I think) this may be a mandatory ground for possession. If not, the solution you refer to will be an option. Actually, I am reluctant to do this unless there is a great difference in market value (that is BMV) or paying him off. I don't want to be held to ransom. As you say, it sounds as if he knows what he is doing and on this basis may feel he deserves a very generous pay off. I certaintly would not want to forfeit 10% of the value of the house but when I start thinking rationally some bargaining may be appropriate. Right now I would rather up their rent and leave them too it as their behaviour has caused a lot of unecessary stress at this time. I have been respectful and considerate in my many dealings with this person to no avail. I am awaiting information from my solicitor who is dealing with so many other issues in relation to my mother's estate. The problem with me, is I like to undertake my own research rather than rely on what my brief states otherwise I would not necessarily have confidence in their advice. I wouldn't mind but they are not are not cheap. Once I have an update, I will post it here. Anyway, thank you both for posting your thoughts so swiftly for a newbie to this forum. It is appreciated. SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffer bear Posted December 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 The solicitor has requested the rent book directly from the tenant. Let's wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 I wouldn't like to imagine what the reply might be but let's hope it is a positive one! Mortitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffer bear Posted December 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 I shan't be holding my breath.....funnily enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffer bear Posted December 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Great we have a further problem. My mother's lodger is dragging her feet regarding moving on and has announced she is pregnant. The bailiffs state they will not evict someone in such a condition if they are over 8 months. First I've heard of this. Does this mean we should we turn the property into a 'mother and baby' unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Great we have a further problem. My mother's lodger is dragging her feet regarding moving on and has announced she is pregnant. The bailiffs state they will not evict someone in such a condition if they are over 8 months. First I've heard of this. Does this mean we should we turn the property into a 'mother and baby' unit? This is true you cannot evict an 8-9 month pregant woman but of course is she over actually 8 months? She is obviously looking for a council place on eviction from your property. It is up to her to prove her pregnancy and time so if I was you I would proceed as normal with the eviction process and upon receiving a Doctor's certificate of her condition you can assess the next steps to take. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffer bear Posted January 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 Thanks Mel. This will be a drawn out affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffer bear Posted January 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Hello all, I am no further forward. The solicitor is still dealing with all the stuff necessary to have probate granted and until this happens I can't take these issues forward. Tenant has still not produced any documentation.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 I recently ( last April) completed Probate for my late Mother. I actually did all the work myself including selling the property she owned because I just knew using a Solicitor would be a loooooong drawn out process. I completed and was granted Probate within 12 weeks whereas most Solicitors can take 6 months or much longer. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffer bear Posted January 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Hi Melboy, I would rather do things myself but knew that this would be a long drawn out affair. I had suspected that my Mother's Will may have been contested so protected myself from the start. I'm likely to find out whether this is to become a reality or not in the next few months or so. Also, from my posts you can see that things have the potential to become rather complicated for completely different reasons. Once I have Probate, the rent will be increased as a first task...... BB Ps. Oh and in my last post I forgot to mention that the brief had sent the tenants letters requesting sight of their tenancy agreements or inviting them to vacate the premises!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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