central heating problem

[Chesterlandlord]

any of you other landlords have any idea about central heating probs?

I have had a rad fitted to an extension (the plumber who fitted it is now out of business) and the rad has never been right, it gets hot at the top, not so hot at the bottom. I have tried balancing the other rads and bled the 'offending' rad but still no good, I doubt it is 'sludge' in the system as all the other rads work OK and this is a new rad.

Problem is the return pipe is HOTTER than the flow pipe...do you think it is connected the wrong way around? i.e. rad stat connected to return rather than flow ????

[vinvin]

any of you other landlords have any idea about central heating probs?

I have had a rad fitted to an extension (the plumber who fitted it is now out of business) and the rad has never been right, it gets hot at the top, not so hot at the bottom. I have tried balancing the other rads and bled the 'offending' rad but still no good, I doubt it is 'sludge' in the system as all the other rads work OK and this is a new rad.

Problem is the return pipe is HOTTER than the flow pipe...do you think it is connected the wrong way around? i.e. rad stat connected to return rather than flow ????

[vinvin]

Whilst i dont wish to be offensive in my reply.

Is this really a question for here. I guess you have the other plumber as he was CHEAP, (plumbers dont usually go out of business unless there not that good or blaggers)

Spend some real money, its tax deductable. At a pinch, get three plumbers to tell you and how much to fix. if two out of the three sing from the same hymn sheet, most probably they are right.

One assumes you dont know what it is, and then you ask other most probably unqualified people. Most of us are experienced investors not qualified plumber or heating engineers.

Bite the bullet if the problem bugs you spend some money. One assumes your unlikely to do the job yourself anyway.

Whilst sadly the construction industry is rife with blaggers, there are a lot of good genuine guys out there. Pay peanuts get monkeys. At the end of the job...............get the engineer to fire up the heating before you pay.....easy really.

[Chesterlandlord]

Whilst i dont wish to be offensive in my reply.

Is this really a question for here. I guess you have the other plumber as he was CHEAP, (plumbers dont usually go out of business unless there not that good or blaggers)

Spend some real money, its tax deductable. At a pinch, get three plumbers to tell you and how much to fix. if two out of the three sing from the same hymn sheet, most probably they are right.

One assumes you dont know what it is, and then you ask other most probably unqualified people. Most of us are experienced investors not qualified plumber or heating engineers.

Bite the bullet if the problem bugs you spend some money. One assumes your unlikely to do the job yourself anyway.

Whilst sadly the construction industry is rife with blaggers, there are a lot of good genuine guys out there. Pay peanuts get monkeys. At the end of the job...............get the engineer to fire up the heating before you pay.....easy really.

[Chesterlandlord]

[Chesterlandlord]

VIN VIN, Maybe a tidge on the offensive.....my same Corgi plumber who has given me EXCELLENT service over my 20 YEARS in the property rental business has stopped work for health reasons.......Did you try to get a plumber over the cold festive period to try to look after YOUR tenants? if so I bet you were struggling like me...I was simply asking advice from my fellow landlords who have been known to help each other out on this site !!

Happy New Year!

[vinvin]

The point is health reasons ok well, maybe he could have recommended one........or maybe you should have made plans before.

The others solution and cheaper would have been, to get two cheaper heaters about 18 quid each much cheaper than calling out a plumber over the festive period, and then they would be there in case of emergencies.

At the end of the day, it was one rad they thad, central heating everywhere else i suppose, and why do they leave it until the christm as period, and yes i could have got a plumber over the festive period. depends on HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO PAY..................

I stand by my previous email, and the comments and contents therein, ts obviously not a problem that has just occured, and if as you suggest the previous plumber has 20 years exp im shocked he didnt know what it was, however, a plumber IS NOT A HEATING ENGINEER.................

[Melboy]

any of you other landlords have any idea about central heating probs?

I have had a rad fitted to an extension (the plumber who fitted it is now out of business) and the rad has never been right, it gets hot at the top, not so hot at the bottom. I have tried balancing the other rads and bled the 'offending' rad but still no good, I doubt it is 'sludge' in the system as all the other rads work OK and this is a new rad.

Problem is the return pipe is HOTTER than the flow pipe...do you think it is connected the wrong way around? i.e. rad stat connected to return rather than flow ????

Quite possibly although radiator TRV's are supposed to be dual flow fitment these days. It could be an 'airlocking' problem.

Mel.

PS I am (was!) a qualified Heating Engineer but retired from the business a few years ago but my Son runs a Heating and Plumbing Company.

[Gee]

Hi there

Just to elaborate on Melboys diagnosis, I think you may have assumed the flow and return pipes incorrectly. Logic dictates that the hot pipe is the flow and the return is at a lower temperature (having lost heat to the radiator). As Mel said, this means that modern TRVs can be fitted to either the flow or return side of the radiator . Unfortunately I don't know whether this applies to all new TRVs.

On the assumption that the TRV is the correct type to be fitted on the return side (in your case the cooler pipe side), remove the thermostat top and depress the internal plunger (if it returns easily then the valve is likely to be working). If the plain valve is fitted to the hot pipe then no action is needed since it would already appear to be working, however it would unlikely to do any harm to open the valve fully to let in (or out) as much water as possible.

If this doesn't work then it is likely to be a blockage or an airlock, both are tricky to shift and best left to the professional unless you are confident you know what you are doing, however by feeling along the colder return pipe till it joins the main return pipe it may be possible to locate the general area of the blockage/airlock (usually a sharp bend) and this may help keep yours plumbers time/cost to a minimum.

Excuse the non technical reply and Mel, please correct me if you disagree, however I just could not accept vinvins reply, obviously some Landlords are more hands on than others, but most of us would repair dripping taps and simple plumbing problems. After all the cost of the plumber could be one or two months hard earned profit and it is just common sense to try and eliminate the obvious before calling in a professional and a lot quicker.

As for getting 3 plumbers to come out and give estimates for a simple repair - assuming you can get three out over Christmas and you have the time to wait in over three separate days, I think you would end up paying twice as much!!

Cheers

Gee

[Chesterlandlord]

Hi there

Just to elaborate on Melboys diagnosis, I think you may have assumed the flow and return pipes incorrectly. Logic dictates that the hot pipe is the flow and the return is at a lower temperature (having lost heat to the radiator). As Mel said, this means that modern TRVs can be fitted to either the flow or return side of the radiator . Unfortunately I don't know whether this applies to all new TRVs.

On the assumption that the TRV is the correct type to be fitted on the return side (in your case the cooler pipe side), remove the thermostat top and depress the internal plunger (if it returns easily then the valve is likely to be working). If the plain valve is fitted to the hot pipe then no action is needed since it would already appear to be working, however it would unlikely to do any harm to open the valve fully to let in (or out) as much water as possible.

If this doesn't work then it is likely to be a blockage or an airlock, both are tricky to shift and best left to the

professional unless you are confident you know what you are doing, however by feeling along the colder return pipe till it joins the main return pipe it may be possible to locate the general area of the blockage/airlock (usually a sharp bend) and this may help keep yours plumbers time/cost to a minimum.

Excuse the non technical reply and Mel, please correct me if you disagree, however I just could not accept vinvins reply, obviously some Landlords are more hands on than others, but most of us would repair dripping taps and simple plumbing problems. After all the cost of the plumber could be one or two months hard earned profit and it is just common sense to try and eliminate the obvious before calling in a professional and a lot quicker.

As for getting 3 plumbers to come out and give estimates for a simple repair - assuming you can get three out over Christmas and you have the time to wait in over three separate days, I think you would end up paying twice as much!!

Cheers

Gee

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE ADVISE, nice to know there are some useful comments

[Chesterlandlord]

Quite possibly although radiator TRV's are supposed to be dual flow fitment these days. It could be an 'airlocking' problem.

Mel.

PS I am (was!) a qualified Heating Engineer but retired from the business a few years ago but my Son runs a Heating and Plumbing Company.

Thank you very much

[Chesterlandlord]

Many thanks for the helpful replies .....

[vinvin]

blah blah blah chester, i suppose now you will be doing the job yourself. I doubt it.....as you haven't until now.

As to the comment of a a plumber COMING OUT to give an estimate, based on your comment they would not come out but give a verbal estimate based on what you said, without even leaving the house.

As far as helpful comment, buying two heaters as backup, for the eventualities happening, I think is a helpful comment. As an agent i have about 12 as a back up, thus avoiding my landlords occuring call out costs during the festive period..................should a problem arrise

[Chestnut]

Skipping all the unhelpful nonsense here's a few technical suggestions from a non-plumber with the odd few years experience in hydraulic design.

1) Modern TRVs are usually dual flow - but some single flow ones like mine work on either flow or return end of rad provided the TRV elbow has been fitted in correct orientation for the flow direction. Check whether the control spindle is vertical (for flow end) or horizontal (for return end).

2) The top of the rad is hot and bottom is cold. Assuming both pipes enter the bottom this suggests the flow through the rad is too slow. As stated above somewhere TRVs and their push-pins can get blocked and it's worth mechanically cycling the push-pin with a pair of pliers to check if it will come further out. If the bottom of the rad then gets hot you've found the problem!

3) I have managed to successfully back flush a TRV by closing the lock valve at the other end and bleeding water from the rad vent for a bit. The lock valve will then require resetting to rebalance the rad.

4) Check that another appliance isn't causing the TRV to close. I had a case where an experienced installer had put the TRV on a rad end near a powered fan convector in the same circuit. When the fan came on the hot air closed the TRV on the rad such that the room never got warm! The solution (which took a whole season to find!!) was to put the TRV on the other end, remote from the fan.

5) Is the rad in the extension just too far away from the rest of the system for the boiler and pump capacity?

6) Google a DIY plumbing forum. There's loads of people out there more knowledgeable than I who love getting their teeth into this stuff and will rattle on for days.......

I hope this is helpful. It makes a change from all the eviction stuff!!

[Chesterlandlord]

Skipping all the unhelpful nonsense here's a few technical suggestions from a non-plumber with the odd few years experience in hydraulic design.

1) Modern TRVs are usually dual flow - but some single flow ones like mine work on either flow or return end of rad provided the TRV elbow has been fitted in correct orientation for the flow direction. Check whether the control spindle is vertical (for flow end) or horizontal (for return end).

2) The top of the rad is hot and bottom is cold. Assuming both pipes enter the bottom this suggests the flow through the rad is too slow. As stated above somewhere TRVs and their push-pins can get blocked and it's worth mechanically cycling the push-pin with a pair of pliers to check if it will come further out. If the bottom of the rad then gets hot you've found the problem!

3) I have managed to successfully back flush a TRV by closing the lock valve at the other end and bleeding water from the rad vent for a bit. The lock valve will then require resetting to rebalance the rad.

4) Check that another appliance isn't causing the TRV to close. I had a case where an experienced installer had put the TRV on a rad end near a powered fan convector in the same circuit. When the fan came on the hot air closed the TRV on the rad such that the room never got warm! The solution (which took a whole season to find!!) was to put the TRV on the other end, remote from the fan.

5) Is the rad in the extension just too far away from the rest of the system for the boiler and pump capacity?

6) Google a DIY plumbing forum. There's loads of people out there more knowledgeable than I who love getting their teeth into this stuff and will rattle on for days.......

I hope this is helpful. It makes a change from all the eviction stuff!!

Thank you again for the helpful advice.....

[vinvin]

To set the record straight - regarding useful or useless information!!!!!!!

I dont manage 200 million pounds worth of others assests without knowing what im on about.

The point is. Firstly its an ongoing problem, why leave till winter, how many years has it gone on, what happened to the orginal guy who fitted it, why have you not had it fixed until NOW!!!!!

Its all very well giving this form of practical advise, to a novice, but what is he gonna do with it, drain the system down, replace the TRV, etc etc and still not fix it, or have two left hands with tools to start with.

Chester could have asked the same question in the summer but no!!! lets leave it till it really get cold and the tenant complains........

As previously mentioned that why we keep panel heater to hand, in these situations as previously mentioned.

After all after 13 years of experience, i really dont know what im talking about.

DO I......................................

Speculate to accumulate - property is not a one way street, it an investment, you have to spend and invest to get back a return.

Buy your self a 3 star package with BG for 150 quid a year, if your so far away.....Problem solved........

[Preston]

if as you suggest the previous plumber has 20 years exp im shocked he didnt know what it was, however, a plumber IS NOT A HEATING ENGINEER.................

Hi, sounds like you don't have a great deal of experience in the property or the building industries if you are still shocked by the difficulties which sometimes occur in diagnosing plumbing problems.

Preston