fifilovestrixy Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Well it had to happen sooner or later after 4 yrs of no hassle.. have had the tenant from hell... Won't go into the gory details, but after 12 months of 'difficulties' and a month of unpaid rent, I issued a s21 which finishes on 18 August. I get a call a month or so ago to say that the tenant has vacated the property and has sold all of his goods. I check through the tenancy (from this website) and it says that if I have reasonable cause to believe that the property has been abandoned, then I can enter after 21 days. 21 days, several calls to my neighbours later who all say he's left - and a visit from the police who say that they don't believe he will return to the property as a warrant has been issued for his arrest - I enter the now almost completely vacant property and change the locks... He has left a bed and a futon, along with an assortment of stolen goods!!! I hand the stolen goods over to the police but leave the bed and futon in situ. Last night I get a call from him saying that he knows his rights, and that I should not have entered the property until 18 August. He is angry because he wants his futon and bed back... he even says he has a right to be there - although I remind him that the police will arrest him there if he returns (it is his bail address and he has skipped bail). I am happy to give him back the bed and futon (although he owes me two months rent) , but have been warned not to approach him as he is dangerous (wanted for stabbing and racial hatred etc)... How the devil will I get this stuff back to him?! I suppose my questions are: 1. Am I legally in the wrong to have used the 21 days clause in the tenancy agreement after having issued a s21? 2. Any experience of how to get goods back to tenants without having to meet with them - storage etc? Any help appreciated - even if it's not words of comfort! Thanks Fi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 1) You should really have placed an abandonement notice on the front door. This would say "I believe you have abandoned this property and give you 14 days to contact me to recover any goods you may have left in the property etc etc. Going down this route you should really store the items for about 28 days (I believe) 2) I'd call him and say that the bed and the futon will be outside the property on "18/08/08 at 12 o clock till 2 o clock and you are welcome to come and pick them up, if they are not collected by 2 o clock then they will be disposed of" If he wants them sooner then I'd arrange a time and a date, you get there an hour earlier and move the items outside and watch from a safe distance, problem here is the Tenant could say that they didn't pick them up and someone else took them. My gut reaction would be to tell him to meet you at the property and get him to sign that he's taken the goods and that he has now officially left the property, but take along a witness (preferably of large proportions or the police) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 J4L offers good advice. Unfortunately, abandonment notices carry little weight in law if tested. The tenant may think he knows his rights but does he know how to interpret them correctly. Ultimately it's up to the judge to decide, just make sure you have collected enough evidence to back your belief. Don't hold on to his possessions any longer than necessary, strictly speaking it's still possible for a counter claim several years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifilovestrixy Posted July 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Me again, Thanks for the advice. I did post an abondonment notice, so I think I'm in the clear. I guess I'm wondering now what to do. Do I: A) Hand him a key back to the property despite the fact that the tenacy terminated on 30 June (but the s21 finishes on 18 August) OR take my chances in court against him and risk a fine / worse... I suppose that I'm concerned that he will trash the place if I let him return, so it may be worth risking a fine if that's the worst I will face. I still cannot understand why he wants to go back to the house when he knows that the police will arrest him on his return there. I suppose he may have something stashed there he wants to pick up (I gather he's into drugs...). Can you believe that his mum is a teacher and da a policeman?! He even spent time and effort doing the property up, so I had no reason to suspect he was such a nasty bloke. This is a good lesson to learn early on I guess! The worst of it, is that two of my neighbours have left their homes as they simply cannot face him (they lent him money and when asked for it back hhe threatned them with a couple of his mates..). Quelle horreure! Have used a letting agent on my other property given the poor lack of judgement I showed as regards this fella! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Firstly, You can NEVER tell what a person is going to be like so don't beat yourself up over this. It happens. Definetly DON'T hand a key back to the property. You need to stay in CONTROL of this situation and by holding the key you keep that. ordinarily abandonment notices are just a bit of leverage for the LL if/when they go to court so don't think you're in the clear totally because you're not. Judges don't like them and do sometimes rule against a LL after they have posted one. Odds of this happening in your situation are remote but just be careful. If he's hiding something then go down the police escort route for the pick up of goods and he probably won't show. Like I said, don't beat yourself up about this it was merely a lack of judgement on your behalf with little or no 'double checking' Agents make this mistake also, very often so don't worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Simple 1.Have a word at local police station ......as they are aware of situation ...leave key with them ...then inform Tenant that key is available at local police station for him to pick up (instructions are that key will only be released to him and no-one else ..on production of id ...driving license/passport)I,m sure they will be happy to help!!!! 2.Instruct all neighbours to call either you or police upon sight of T within vicinity of property!!!!!! 3.Bed and futon ...assumed abandoned (i would remove immediately and store elsewhere) .....and taken in luie of outstanding rent ......Upon immediate backpayment of rent you commit to return 2 items from the pawn shop you cashed them in at ..............in Basra!!!!) Rodent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 I must congratulate Rodent on this astute reply. I do wish I had involved the police more when I 'entered' recently after assuming abandonement. Now I'm on police bail for it. My solicitor had led me to believe that they would not be interested in landlord/tenant disputes but I found the exact opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 D'you know that after reading this thread and a million others over the years isn't it depressing that Scumbags are allowed to get away with all of this over what is rightfully and normally a peaceful Landlord wishing to let his property to somone else. Time for a major shake up in renting law I reckon to support legal and entitled Landlords. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Hi It appears some Police Officers are more pro active in landlord/ tenant disputes than in the past. I had a run in a couple of weeks ago… My tenant died in hospital on the 10th June the relatives rang to inform me on the day of death and agreed to move out tenants belongings and clean the flat. They first said it would be done before the Friday then at the weekend and promised definitely before the Monday as I had a viewing booked. I went to the property on the Monday as agreed and it was in a right state but all the personal possessions had been removed. The tenant unfortunately had an strained relationship with his family and had little contact with them. When we went to clean up the flat on the Tuesday we discovered we had to replace all the furniture and carpets and noticed a few pictures on the walls. We cleaned up and moved on leaving the pictures where we found them. I got a call from my local PC requesting I attend a formal interview under caution for a allegation of theft for pinching “works of art” as directed by some estranged relative. I was advised that failure to cooperate would result in a warrant for my arrest… Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 The trouble is you will now have to give DNA, fingerprints and be photographed just to give that interview which in my opinion is totally over the top and intimidating. Take as little as possible in with you and try and request a 'quiet time' to do it or they will put you in a cell. The CPS have decided to prosecute me for 'violent unlawful entry' and I am up before the beak on 6th August. I won't get legal aid unlike my ex tenant so will have to fund the case myself. When I answered my bail last Friday (which involved a round trip of 200 miles) the case officer told me the tenant had to cheek to ring and ask her to provide him with a letter saying I had chucked him, wife and child out so he could get council accommodation! Luckily she told him where to go as she had never seen his wife and child. They left him last September - 5 months before I went in and are now in the Philipines. Even more galling is the fact that he has put in complaints to the police authority about the two male officers who attended on the day and this case officer! Why is anyone listening to him?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Hi It appears some Police Officers are more pro active in landlord/ tenant disputes than in the past. I had a run in a couple of weeks ago… My tenant died in hospital on the 10th June the relatives rang to inform me on the day of death and agreed to move out tenants belongings and clean the flat. They first said it would be done before the Friday then at the weekend and promised definitely before the Monday as I had a viewing booked. I went to the property on the Monday as agreed and it was in a right state but all the personal possessions had been removed. The tenant unfortunately had an strained relationship with his family and had little contact with them. When we went to clean up the flat on the Tuesday we discovered we had to replace all the furniture and carpets and noticed a few pictures on the walls. We cleaned up and moved on leaving the pictures where we found them. I got a call from my local PC requesting I attend a formal interview under caution for a allegation of theft for pinching “works of art†as directed by some estranged relative. I was advised that failure to cooperate would result in a warrant for my arrest… Oliver Hi Oliver hope you are well! What is with the "theft" ?????????(definition: property taken/removed without owners permission ... with no intention of returning it ) If items still in situ then no theft has occurred ....simply left behind by T family ....just ask them to collect and stop wasting everybodies time ....also present them/ the estate with an invoice for the replacement furniture/carpets at the same time.... The Rodent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 The trouble is you will now have to give DNA, fingerprints and be photographed just to give that interview which in my opinion is totally over the top and intimidating. Take as little as possible in with you and try and request a 'quiet time' to do it or they will put you in a cell. The CPS have decided to prosecute me for 'violent unlawful entry' and I am up before the beak on 6th August. I won't get legal aid unlike my ex tenant so will have to fund the case myself. When I answered my bail last Friday (which involved a round trip of 200 miles) the case officer told me the tenant had to cheek to ring and ask her to provide him with a letter saying I had chucked him, wife and child out so he could get council accommodation! Luckily she told him where to go as she had never seen his wife and child. They left him last September - 5 months before I went in and are now in the Philipines. Even more galling is the fact that he has put in complaints to the police authority about the two male officers who attended on the day and this case officer! Why is anyone listening to him?! Dont know the background circumstances on this one but "violent " ????????????.....what did you do ??? In order to cover one's axxx in future DO NOT ENTER prop until end of S21 notice ....unless you really have to ......and then use one of the reasons below : 1. Book in an inspection ...wriutten notice 24/48 hrs b4 ...if they have vacated then you clearly wont get a reply ..but have done your bit (making sure notice is worded along the lines of .....will assume this to be acceptable date/time and will proceed unless t advises otherwise ...and NOT pls confirm this is okay ) 2. Book a viewing ...as above 3. Reported emergency .....water leak etc 4. If locks changed and no entry possible other than forced then call police ..and a. report suspected cnnabis factory or b. report concern for "usually v reliable" tenant being uncontactable and concern for their health You should get a response within hours !! an a police forced entry .......................Now as you didn't force entry (the police did!) you can't be blamed can you ! and afterwards as a good LL you need to resecure the prop with a new lock.....leave note on the door informing t that they need to contact you immediately to collect new keys ...or police if sit warrants it (see above) None of this however, will get you out of reclaiming your prop too early ...............to do this will always be a calculated risk without written agreement from the T ..........but will stop you getting on hot water for "entering" prop. The Rodent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Thanks for setting out that advice Rodent. The reason I joined this site was to contact others who may have been in this situation and see how they fared. The charge of 'entering a property with violence' or 'violent unlawaful entry' seems to be a new charge. Even the police had to look it up as it didn't seem to fit their computer. I had applied for S21 and got it but courts had lost paperwork and I got nothing back until the following week. Then I got letters of apology from courts - in the meantime gas safety cert was out of date and my brother and I decided to go round and see if tenant had abandoned or if we could get in to do safety checks. I had tried to book an inspection but T wrote back saying he would not let me in and I had no right to go in. He would not ans the phone. He owed £2800 rent. Downstairs had complained of water thru ceiling and tenant acting strange - his Mrs had left him and taken child we later established. In my case the 'violence' was pushing at the door whilst tenant was punching out thru chained door. Also I was carrying a piece of 4 X 2 wood. This was to prop up the trap to the loft/roof acces from the flat to make sure there were no bodies. (The wife and child had not been seen since Sept and it was now Feb and I was worried. I did place the 4 X 2 in the door to prevent him shutting it in our faces and to stop the antique glass in it breaking - that bit didn't work. He later told police I was going to /or did hit him with 4 X 2. I did not. This guy weighs about 17 stones and is in his 30's. I am 9 stones and am in my 50's. He called the police and they were there quickly (5 mins) and he made no complaint at the time. He left 7 days later of own accord them 6 weeks later went and made complaints about everyone involved that day and then about the officer he made the complaint to. Had I viewed this site beforehand I would have done it all very differently and I have picked up soooo many tips in the last few weeks. Thank you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Well next time take a lump of 2x2 NOT 4x2 ...that should be acceptable !!!! The Rodent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Hi Well I asked for my right for representation and discovered that as it was a criminal charge I was entitled to FREE legal advice from a solicitor. I asked the PC for the details and she was obliged to provide them for me. Well we then had to book interview when all parties available Me the PC and solicitor, any way the interview was delayed twice once because the solicitor was in court and once as I was sitting my EPC exam. Any way in the meantime I wrote a letter providing the PC with tenants contact details and requested they all pop down to collect the pictures. I visited the tenant a week later and found all the pictures outside and as it was about to rain I nipped home and rang PC to advise her. The PC escorted the relative to collect them within the hour and gave the tenant a bit of hassle asking her if I had told her to dump outside. The day before my confirmed interview under caution I received a letter from PC advising me all charges had been dropped as pictures had been recovered. So apart from the added hassle and stress caused (at exam time too) the ordeal is over without being charged. Another day in the landlord life Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.