Gullygoma Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I have some tenants who had been staying with the previous tenant. When she left I agreed to them taking over the tenancy. However they did not sign the tenancy agreement always making excuses saying they would post it, they'd mislaid it etc. They have paid their rent (housing benefit) but are dreadful tenants making so much noise and being so abusive to neighbours that I now find myself unable to let the flat below. I need to be rid of them but where do I stand legally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonbaldry Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Up the creek without a paddle my friend, whilst there is no legal requirement to proved a tenancy in England or Wales , it is a legal requirement to provide the tenant with confirmation of your address and where his( or her) deposit is registered. By allowing the tenants to move in without a written AST you are not able to serve a section 21, insist on terms of the teancy i.e paying the rent on time. The list can go on I would swallow my pride and see what i could do to get the tenants to sign a contract If that does'nt work seek legal advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Up the creek without a paddle my friend, whilst there is no legal requirement to proved a tenancy in England or Wales , it is a legal requirement to provide the tenant with confirmation of your address and where his( or her) deposit is registered. By allowing the tenants to move in without a written AST you are not able to serve a section 21, insist on terms of the teancy i.e paying the rent on time. The list can go on I would swallow my pride and see what i could do to get the tenants to sign a contract If that does'nt work seek legal advice The above will only apply if an ast is in place .....as it would appear there is not ...so none of the above actually applies at all !! Did you sign the copy that you left them to sign ? cos if not there is not an ast in place ! The Rodent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonbaldry Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Sorry big guy Take that one to court and the judge will say that a tenacy has been agreed when the tenants were allowed to move in with the landlords agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Possibly ...in which case serve a S21 imediately ...you cant have it both ways !! The Rodent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 You are in deep do-do. Without a signed AST you are going to have one hell of a battle getting them out and at this point you need to seek professional advice from a specialist property solicitor. Best of luck! Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonbaldry Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 As I said a tenancy in England and Wales doesn’t have to be a written document and by allowing them into the property they now have a tenancy, which will now be treated as Shorthold tenancy not Assured as there is no clear end date( they are after all not squaters,on holiday or living there as lodgers), however the tenants do have a legal right to certain things in righting from the landlord and to withhold them is a criminal offence . A) The address of the landlord in England or Wales, use to be covered by a section 48, think it still is but please correct me The government approved scheme in which there deposit is registered Without these you can not issue a section 21 and are liable to a fine regarding the deposit. Also it is impossible to issue a section 8 on the discretionary grounds that they are making a nuisance of themselves as that of course is not a clause in the tenancy. If it was me I would be round there with a Assured Shorthold Tenancy a big smile on my face and an offer of a night out in the local boozer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Clearly a back dated ast would be very useful which then implies dep protection If you want them out, then to sign an new ast for a further (min 6mths) is a tad unhelpful ..... but if no ast in place "existing dep" easily deemed as rent "upfront" as no ast to define what cash is for exactly.... I would offer a van to move them and a night in the pub to celebrate their immediate vacation of property.... If no ast in place, then no requirement to protect deposit .........unless i am mistaken ? The Rodent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonbaldry Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Ok deposit aside, because i don't know if there is one and yes could argue they have paid two months in advance ( try getting that past our local shelter rep) However you can't issue a section 21 until there is clear end date and as they are not breaking any clauses of the tenancy a section 8 is not valid. So surely a signed AST has to be the way forward, unless of course they agree to leave. But why would they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDTWIN Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 While you are still on speaking terms with them and as they say they just keep mislaying the contract why dont you go to the property with with a pre dated contract put them on the spot and get them to sign there and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 How long have they been in the prop? How long since they "took over" from previous T ? Have you got a copy of unsigned ast ? Was deposit taken from original T or "new" T ....if there is one is protected ? ..and in which name ? More info required to advise further The Rodent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Just to give my 2p's worth. An AST can be created without a signed document in place, which afterall just stipulates the terms of that tenancy agreement. Plus, if a Section 48 hasn't been served, the landlord has no entitlement to rent however still serve a Section 21 for possession proceedings if necessary. New, including renewed, tenancies have to have the deposit protected since April 07. If this hasn't been done and is required you could be in the doo as they could claim compensation and the S21 is invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 If deposit was given by original tenants, was this returned or "rolled over" into new un documented tenancy ? was it "unprotected" at any time ? The Rodent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gullygoma Posted June 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 How long have they been in the prop? How long since they "took over" from previous T ? Have you got a copy of unsigned ast ? Was deposit taken from original T or "new" T ....if there is one is protected ? ..and in which name ? More info required to advise further The Rodent I'm not sure when they moved in with previous tenant possibly a month before they started paying (housing benefit) the rent in January 2008 I have copy of unsigned ast No deposit was taken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smarter_Housing Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Is there a reason why this must go to court? Approaching the tenants and talking would seem like the most sensible start. If they don't agree to change I can't then see them seeking legal advice (and thus discovering your potential dilemma with serving notice) if you threaten them with an eviction. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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