stevetodd Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 After a tenant fell behind with her rent last June (yes 2006) I thought I was finally getting it solved when earlier this month she said she had the money and was transferring the £1,829 into my account. After waiting more than a week after the date she said she transferred the money it didn't arrive. I've lost my patience now as this is nth time something similar to this has happened. Yesterday she said she was very suprised the money hadn't come and promised to get back to me that day, which she did not, I have called her and emailed he twice since then but have got no response. Since she has the money it seems logical that I should use a debt collector. Could anyone please tell me how the Dc system works, what I am interested in is: 1. Should I give her yet another ultimatum i.e. pay or I will instuct a debt collector after 4 days. 2. Is it her responsibility to pay the debt collector's fees or is it a grey area? 3. What are typical debt collectors fees? 4. How are DC's fees paid? 5. Is there anything else I should be considering (by the way she is actually moving out approx early December as she is buying her won place) Thanks in advance for any assistance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 Write to her to tell her that you cannot allow the matter to continue and that unless cleared funds are received in 48 hours for the full amount you will be putting the matter in to the hands of a debt collecting agency, who will add their own charges to her debt. Typically they charge 15%, which is added to the overall debt and is the tenant's responsibility as it has occured through them not meeting thier obligations. Instruct the tenant that once DCs have been instructed, they will have to pay the arrears and charges direct to the agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 If you use a DC you must state name of agency and fees(15%) payable by T in letter if you want T to pay this cost. Give T a time frame 3,5,7,10,14 days in writing ... S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Hi I am wary of debt collectors… This is because it puts landlord at risk of an harassment charge which can affect successful eviction esp if section 8. Use a legit CCJ via www.moneyclaim.gov.uk this can not be considered as harassment even when a court bailiff is used. Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Oliver How can using a bonafide registeres DC be considered "harrassment" they have their own code of coduct to adhere too. So long as they do adhere to code then the law will protect them and you the LL. If T refuses to co-op then DC will take to court as part of process (or hand back for you to do) It is a very effective intermediate step which in my case has a 99.9% success rate in getting Debt pad and things back on an almost immediate even keel ...... S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi Simon Its Ok to use a debt collector after the tenant has vacated as they are no longer a tenant. During the tenancy visiting a tenant to request payment, writing demanding payment or making phone calls to a tenant could be construed as harassment and could be argued to affect the tenants right to “Quiet Enjoyment”. Any of the above actions by a landlord a servant or agent acting on behalf of a landlord could be considered harassment and a tenant can get legal aid to obtain an injunction against a landlord. This opens up a line of defence for evictions which is actively exploited by savvy tenant reps. Believe me I have been there… In my area DC are refusing to take on landlords because of this as they have received guidance to this effect. Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 I know where you are coming from but completely disagree ........If some owes me rent i have a right to ask for it ...or employ whomever i choose to act on my behalf ....as long as DC acts within law and under code of conduct both He and LL are protected by law from "harassment" issues... We are not talking baseball bat tactics here i mean proper licensed agencies.....this has been discussed at great length on here and other forums ...these guys have a licence to operate in this field and personally i find the very threat of DC enough in most case to produce the desired effect of communication chanels reopened and debt paid pretty quickly .... S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 DCs worth their salt know how to operate within the law and avoid harassment claims, often put up as a smoke & mirrors strategy by some unwilling to pay their way. It is perfectly legitimate to try and re-claim a bad debt so long as it is within reason. On a point of fact, someone can claim harassment, even when they are no longer a tenant. There was a case in the papers recently of a landlord who had an harassment claim against her after the tenant had left, was arrested, DNA tested, interviewed and then released without charge. Great bit of policing, yet try calling them when your place has suffered criminal damage by a bad tenant and see how they respond. If it's the same as I experienced then forget it. Parity of treatment; no chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi Simon Its very frustrating I know but threatening tenants with DC is harassment. You are lucky you have got away with it for so long. You must live in an area which does not provide free legal assistance to your tenants. My tenants are well advised and know their rights.. My tenants are also advised they do not have to vacate unless served with a valid legal judgement from a court and section 21 is insufficient. (hence my frequent trips to court) The first question that the reps ask my problem tenant is has there been any harassment they are even encouraged to invent incidents to strengthen there case. The threat or use of a DC is music to there ears. Once an harassment charge is in place then you will find getting a possession judgement is more difficult. With an harassment allegation its up to you to prove innocence rather than the other way round. I have learnt the hard way…. The only safe way to recover losses is via CCJ as court action (even multiple court action) is not harassment. The easiest way to do this is via www.moneyclaim.gov.uk as its free to use and menu driven so you cant cock up you only pay the court fee approx £55. the tenant gets the CCJ notice within 48 hrs. The on line service allows you to log in 24/7 and request judgement and dispatch the bailiff. It is amateurish, unprofessional and bad advice to use a DC while tenant remains in your property it opens up unnecessary risks to the landlord. I am only the messenger of this knowledge, check with the RLA or the NLA (I am a member of both) or take up-to-date legal advice. Using a DC not only puts the landlord at risk this could also put your DC in an uncompromising position which could result in loss of their licence. What you do with your own business and how you operate is your call. You should perhaps refrain from encouraging others however from placing themselves in vulnerable positions as this may come back to haunt you. If you do advise others to use a DC then add a disclaimer and inform of the risks. A few years ago I was of the same view point then the playing field changed. Essentially some councils now find that it is cheaper to challenge an amateur landlord eviction attempts than to re house a homeless person. The new band of publicly funded tenant reps have re-examined the housing laws and twist and exploit any loophole or mistake a landlord may make. It is easy for them as this is their full time activity. Areas of the country with strong housing needs or shortages fight for tenants rights the hardest. (I have a waiting list so tenants are reluctant to move) You have been lucky but eventually this advice will filter through to your tenants so be professional or be careful. I have started to use female rent collectors and found this very successful and this also goes someway to mitigate harassment. Harassment is now considered any activity by a landlord, servant or agent which interferes with a tenants right to “Quiet Enjoyment” Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi Oliver DC is nothing more than an intermediatory step on the way to making a small claim ...a third party negotiator Whom in reality has little power other than physcological and is on a par with employing a solicitor to warn of further action if debt not addressed (which will work on the "right" people) Clearly clued up "professional system" T's are a very different story these i avoid like the plague ..good refs and operating market sector go a long way to screening these out .... ...however have taken your points on board and will do some research .....Also will reiterate that in 99% of cases (in what is an almost neglible situation to start with -for me) the very threat of involvement is enough to sort problems out ... Q What is the difference between 1.LL knocking on door requesting rent due 2.LA doing the same or 3. appointed agent in form of DC knocking ??? S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi Simon Any tenant can turn especially when hit financial troubles if this is the case the landlord becomes the bad guy. Q What is the difference between 1.LL knocking on door requesting rent due 2.LA doing the same or 3. appointed agent in form of DC knocking ??? S The sad fact is all of these actions can be considered as harassment given determination and assistance. I have had tenants shocked that because the paperwork was all correct and valid that I actually had the right to possession. They seem to get sucked into the “we have rights” and find it hard to believe otherwise. I personally think its due to the decline in social housing and the inability of the tenant to differentiate between the public and private sector. Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi Simon Any tenant can turn especially when hit financial troubles if this is the case the landlord becomes the bad guy. The sad fact is all of these actions can be considered as harassment given determination and assistance. I have had tenants shocked that because the paperwork was all correct and valid that I actually had the right to possession. They seem to get sucked into the “we have rights” and find it hard to believe otherwise. I personally think its due to the decline in social housing and the inability of the tenant to differentiate between the public and private sector. Oliver I am not going to disagree with the logic here...but will continue to strive to avoid this type of tenant ....out of interest, do most of your problems revolve around HB tenants ?? S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi Simon No my last tenant from hell was a hairdresser with all correct refs nice car just hit bad times and did not want to part with her cash. All tenants that apply for help are referred to the free housing advice centre attached to the HB office. This centre is the vain of my life with 3 full time staff (I know all their names) dedicated to solely encouraging all tenants to exercise their rights. I have become clued up very quickly and now make sure that I make no mistakes and follow all guidance to the full. Now the table have turned they ring me to tell me they have another referral and they are happy with my paper work. This does have advantages now as the tenants get told everything is correct and they should start preparing to move and they listen to them as they are independent. You will notice the difference when a centre opens up near you, this might be part of the programme of changes when LHA gets rolled out to replace HB in April next year. Be ready Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Appreciate the advice ....luckily for me the few T that have found themselves in this position i have been able to help them to work thru their problems(sometimes with a DC letter to get them talking to me again ) and those that we cant sort have given notice and left of their own accord ...guess i must just be lucky so far .... I have one T who is "seriously" behind with rent and have issued my very first S21 this week, as he was avoiding me, (for nearly 5 weeks !) but as i know him fairly well i knew he wasn't going far ! also DC letter ...result ---he appeared in my office next day to tell me he had lost his job and wanted to know how much i wanted immediately to not use DC ....he is not in a position to pay it all one go regardless, and putting DC on case i know is a complete waste of time ....but he doesn't know my thoughts does he !? Result ---family is going to lend him some money ...have also told him i will move him to a cheaper prop with new ast on proviso that we have an A1 guarantor ........and sensible repayment plan put forward to clear back rent ......Have extended my DC deadline to end of S21 date 31/12 and told him that not only will he be get evicted a DC will also chase him down the road .... So as long as he plays ball no eviction (he leaves as he should ...no DC and a cheaper place to live and no need for a truthful reference to a new LL) can i be any fairer than that .......well guess i could write the debt off ......as i told him ...if he can get Mort co to write 3/4 months mort off i promised to write off 3/4 months of rent!!! I think he got the point ! Most LL would kick him out ....but he is basically a decent guy ......fallen on bad times ...i am not, or ever will be a charity, but as long as T will communicate sensibly with me i will always go the extra mile for them....###### happpens ! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 This does have advantages now as the tenants get told everything is correct and they should start preparing to move and they listen to them as they are independent. This surely can only be considered a good thing .... do they advise to move on S21 or on court order or on Bailiff ? S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi Simon I have just had a call from my mate a landlord in Preston their advisory service has just issued guidance last Friday that issuing both a section 21 an a section 8 together is now considered harassment. It is getting worse I reckon this is challengeable but introduce a DC and they will get stuck in big time, not worth the risk. Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 What if we do rent free ...can we be excused making them breakfast and wiping their Axxxs ...!!!!! All getting rather silly i feel .... I wonder if a whole new tact is required like "extortion of use prop " or something equally as ridiculous......!!! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Well this just seems absolutely rediculous. Because the government can't provide housing, they are trying to screw professional landlords, it sounds well out of order. It would make me feel like going into their offices and saying I can't pay any of these mortgages because of your advise. Can we sue the banks for chasing for payment and fretening DC on me? I mean, I only owe them 5 grand, and they have the cheak to ask me for payment. It's things like this which will lead to dodgey landlords and result in Landlords simply completey avoiding the system and getting some "friends" to remove the bastard tenant and then squat in there! The police don't do anything when my Brother gets bottled in a pub, nor will they do anything when my sister gets stalked and beaten up by a gang of 10 jealous girls, or stop me being mugged 5 times in a few years, so why are they going to worry about us asking for payment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 I like the product, i like your ideas, but most of all i like you ! I'll give you half a mill for 1% ....IM IN ...!!!!! All balances out cos we are rich greedy Bxxxxxs who deserve no parity whatsoever ... But i think you are quite correct Matt ..... Eventually BTL lenders will be exposed to risk, then letting criteria will tighten up and the very "vunerable" T (the ones that need protecting-- but also usually happen to be the ones that are the problem,) will be ousted from the private setor ....leaving the council in great demand for even more props ...which i will happily let to them on 3 yr leases leaving them with all the problems ....and me with a nice quarterly upfront guaranteed payment to spend whilst lounging on the beach !!!!..what goes around WILL eventually come around ..... Have just done 1 negotiating another 2 ....they asked me if i happened to have a 20 room prop spare !!! Nope but if the rent is right i'll go buy one !!!!LOL S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi They advise all tenants not to move unless they receive a court judgement They examine all section docs and AST for errors and if they find one flag it up and make you reissue (giving another 2 months). They provide free advice and will complete defence docs for tenant. If they can pin a harassment charge they will try to get judgement in tenant favour and make you start all over again. They a working on the premise that an amateur landlord will keep tenant rather than paying a solicitor the £1000 a time. They feed tenants with stories such as one tenant passed on to me that a successful harassment charge resulted in the tenant winning compensation to the value of prop and were they sure that they had not suffered harassment because they can pass them on to a free solicitor no win no fee to claim their rightful compensation. This is dangerous stuff. As I said before don’t use DC not worth the risk Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 It's only considered as cause for harassment if tried in law. What cases have there been where a landlord has been sucessfully found guilty of harassment through the use of a DC service to recover a bad debt, I'm not aware of any. We need clear evidence of this, not third hand scare stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi I take your point I agree that the Police would be reluctant to press charges and pursue a criminal prosecution under harassment grounds for use of a Debt Collector. However in my case that’s not the aim although they did attempt to get this first. The Police would consider the complaint of harassment by a tenant regarding the use of a Debt Collector as a civil matter. It is then transferred to a solicitor The tenant can then apply for a temporary emergency civil injunction against the landlord his servant or agent from visiting the property pending a full formal hearing. This is funded through an application for a legal aid certificate. The landlord is now in limbo He cant apply for judgement for possession until the harassment issue is settled. The full formal civil hearing will decide if the harassment complaint is justified on the grounds of interfering with the tenants “Quiet Enjoyment” The judge at the hearing can decide therefore what level of compensation is appropriate and who is awarded costs. It’s a long and expensive process Not worth the risk of using a debt collector in my opinion. Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 I think with everything in life it is horses for courses and all courses of action have an element of "risk" attached ...each situation should be judged on its own merits ...but i'm Fxxxxxd if i am going to stand back and get well and truly shafted by this "situation" ! If this situation presents then first place for advice will of course be CAB .....!! In fact out of interest i will give them a call tomorrow to get a reaction ...... Harrassment is very subjective and not the easiest "charge" to pin on someone ....for a no resident LL or retired LL or maybe female LL to collect is not feasable to collect form "aggressive & professional" T so to hand to a proffessional agency would seem perfectly acceptable ??? If car is broken see a mechanic ...debt problem see a DC .......... I will reserve further comment until i have spoken to CAB .....!!!! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 There are many tactics that can be employed by those wishing to avoid meeting their legal obligations. Personally, if I was accused of harassment I would respond, advising that I'm considering a counter-claim on grounds of defame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugsy Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 I'm amazed at this post.... Having taken a tenant to court, who never paid a dime after month 1, although loaded up cc's and went on holiday, always had the gear and gadgets, etc. - I (muggins) dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's, served all the proper notices only to be treated like a criminal by the judge, of all people! One things for sure, I've got more self-respect for myself than going through that again, ever. Once your tenant leaves and gives a bogus forwarding address, you cannot enforce judgement or get a ccj registerd! The law makes it so difficult to enforce a judgement that you wonder how anyone ends up with a ccj. You have to go through a tracing procedure, get a proper residential address, then pay more money to try to encorce. This can take over a year, so if you have a conniving tenant, who doesn't pay you after month 1 (that's a 2K loss on an average tenancy of 6 months) which he can get away with easily and the court system doesn't give an arse. It's as if the law is saying, well done T, you absconded, gave a fake address, changed jobs, well done, they can't register your ccj now, good for you! I'm sorry but I have learn't the hard way and am not embarrased to say that debt collectors are the answer for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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