lauralivesartnouveau Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Hi I own a property which is well maintained as I am a responsible landlord The tenant informed me that while she was away on a mini break the electric tripped and her fridge/freezer defrosted which she discovered on her return. Within a couple of hours I visited the tenant to assess problem and my electrician was also able to make it the same day. It transpired that a faulty socket caused the trip. The electrician isolated the socket and eventually within a week rewired the faulty circuit. In the meantime the tenant has accumulated rent arrears and now claims that she had around £600 worth of food lost and wishes me to repay her £200 towards this (conveniently similar to the rent arrears) She claims that she has a contents insurance policy which is refusing to pay as her landlord is at fault. (I have had no evidence of this) As a landlord should I accept liability I would appreciate any help or advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 I'd be very cautious here if I were you. If the electrician has stated that it was a faulty socket that tripped the electrics then I'm guessing you ARE reponsible for any damaged food stuffs. What I can't understand is that her insurance company are trying to weasel out of this by saying it's NOT their responsibility. If they insure freezers and their contents does it matter the source of the problem? I'm not 100% about this but maybe you could call her company and find out. Have YOU got contents insurance that you can claim on? Does this come under buildings insurance I wonder if it was found that it was an electrical fault? Again i'm not sure here either so a quick phone call may enlighten you a little. Here's where my cynical mind would be kicking in though, 1) When you went around ' a few hours after' was there evidence of black rubbish bags full of soiled food? 2) How big is this fridge/freezer that it holds £600 worth of goods?? I'm sure I could fill mine and I mean FILL it for around £150 3) Does this person look like they shop in M&S and only eat Steak, Salmon and caviar? Probably not, so the £600 is a fallacious figure 4) With regard to the fridge, if I was going on a mini break I wouldn't really have MUCH in my fridge before I went anyway. 5) Why, if you'd lost £600 of food, would you 'settle' for one third of that? (the £200 she's asking for) I know i'd want all of it replaced. Perosnally I'd demand the rent arrears and say I would be checking up with HERS and YOUR insurance companies to claim for her damaged or soiled food stuffs. Suffice to say I believe this Tenant is trying to pull a fast one on you because she has used your £200 on her mini break! Only my gut reaction!! Get her to clear the rent arrears and promise you'll look into the claim for the foods. If you DO WANT TO help her out a little because she's a good tenant is offer her £50 as a loan to help get her fridge and freezer at least stocked back up a little. Making sure she understands that it IS only a loan and that when insurance companies have argued the toss and you or she gets compensated then the £50 will need to be returned to YOUR pocket. and when I say 'your pocket' I mean if you go down this route don't take it off the £200 arrears but take it out of your own pocket to loan it to her. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 You are not responsible for the loss of contents to the freezer. It is the responsibility of the Tenant to ensure that they have in place insurance to cover incidents such as this. I have been down this path myself and I refused to pay absolutely anything and in your case I do not believe anyone could have £600 worth of food in a domestic freezer for a start. Ask for the name of their Insurance Company so as you can pass the details of the claim to your insurance company and I bet you a pound the Tenent never has had contents cover in force anyway. This in what happened in my case and the Tenant just backed down in the end and eventually left my property. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Keep rent and ins claim seperate - for sure !- If you had a late payment clause in your ast she probably wouldn't have tried this one on! (£5 for every day late ) Rent is a totally seperate issue! I do not tolerate people with-holding rent for ANY purpose............ To be fair - i would take responsibilty for this one ( which will probably amaze some of the regulars on here !haha) BUT with reservations - such as gareth has pointed out - i fail to see how you can get £600 of food into a FF - a huge chest freezer maybe! As for insurance even if your policy covers it you will probably have an excess and it will put your premium up so dont bother! I would be FIRM about the RENT and FAIR about the FOOD ...........ask her to breakdown exactly what was in there - and negotiate a fair price i would say a MAX of £100 - and get a receipt as i would be claiming that one back ( if you were unscrupulous you could get her to sign a receipt for £300 and claim that back - but that would be illegal !!! but would certainly cover your costs!)and not worth getting caught doing. Plym, i'm sure will confirm that this is not the clever way to do it ! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 I'm with Simon on this, the tenant may be entitled to some low level compensation for loss of power to the appliance. However, it is a fact in law that rent obligations are completely independant of repair obligations. Therefore, there is no right to withold rent while this is resolved. Personally, I'd make a good will payment without prejudice and explain quite clearly that this good will gesture is for loss of power and inconvenience, caused through no fault of your own. Fridge contents are a matter for the insurers, which is for the tenant to resolve. You are not responsible for the terms & conditions of her policy. If she does have a policy, it sounds like she's looking for you to pay the excess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ295 Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 just curious about what actually tripped, was it the circuit breaker or the RCD, if it has one, this is the one with the little test button. asking because all fridge/freezers and other appliances have small amounts of earth leakage, this can and does trip rcd's now and then, mostly when the applainces are getting older, i usually put a non rcd protected circuit for the f/f, cooker/hob, etc if its suitable. is the freezer hers or did you supply it? where was the faulty socket. i would speak to the spark and ask for a more detailed reason for the fault, explain to him that the T is trying to get money out of you. my thoughts (hopefully wrong!) is that the spark may have done some work which is not needed to cover his call out costs, if i am correct, there is a possibility that it will trip again in the future if it has been RCD protected. it would be good idea to inform all tenants that if they leave the property unattended for a holiday or such, the f/f should be emptied and left open and unplugged, also switch off and remove all plugs for other stuff (tv etc) and that you take no responsibility for any interuptions in the supply of electricity. and £600 for food, ffs! russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Hi Russ Thanks for this, new problem for me! But "it would be good idea to inform all tenants that if they leave the property unattended for a holiday or such, the f/f should be emptied and left open and unplugged, also switch off and remove all plugs for other stuff (tv etc) and that you take no responsibility for any interuptions in the supply of electricity." will find it's way into my lease on the next rewrite! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plym77 Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 now now Simon, you know that you can't do that with receipts... it is fraud... for the sake of £80 in tax (£200 fraudulent difference x 40% for a higher rate tax payer) tut tut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted June 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Hi All Thank you for your help full advice I have agreed the following with the tenant She will obtain a letter of cover refusal from her insurance policy and itemise a list of food stuff to support her claim She has agreed to pay her rent on the 25th although two weeks late she will make up £100 towards rent arrears. What she does not know is that if she does not make payment as planned she will receive my package My package consists of a section 21 a section 8 and a CCJ for rent arrears. I have checked with my insurance broker and he says I am covered under my public liability policy so if tenant comes up with evidence I will deflect her to my insurer. I have altered my AST agreement with the following "It is the tenant/s responsibility to ensure that all personal possessions and furniture in the premises are covered by an adequate contents insurance policy. In the event of any proven uninsured losses incurred by the tenant/s (such as goods, financial or physical) as a direct result of residing in the property the maximum uninsured liability on the landlord is fixed at £50" comments appreciated I will work also work out how to add suggested holiday precautions Yours Oliver Hi I own a property which is well maintained as I am a responsible landlord The tenant informed me that while she was away on a mini break the electric tripped and her fridge/freezer defrosted which she discovered on her return. Within a couple of hours I visited the tenant to assess problem and my electrician was also able to make it the same day. It transpired that a faulty socket caused the trip. The electrician isolated the socket and eventually within a week rewired the faulty circuit. In the meantime the tenant has accumulated rent arrears and now claims that she had around £600 worth of food lost and wishes me to repay her £200 towards this (conveniently similar to the rent arrears) She claims that she has a contents insurance policy which is refusing to pay as her landlord is at fault. (I have had no evidence of this) As a landlord should I accept liability I would appreciate any help or advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Hi Oliver All power to your elbow- but first only court can give a CCJ and second, you may find statutory laws will almost certainly overide your £50 limit! Bt your are absolutely correct read the riot act over late or withheld rent ! As the "claim" is only £200 check your policy for any excesses and enquire just how much the increase will be inpoolicy next year - i suspect that this will not be a "clever" move to make !!! A very useful clause would be to charge a £5 a day late payment fee on rent(plus interest @ say 5% above base pa) as this would have cost her around £75 - a pretty good deterrent !! - works for me ! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted June 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 Hi Simon I issue CCJ’s all the time I find them a very quick and effective way of moving a tenant on. I have a online account with www.moneyclaim.gov.uk run by Northampton county court on behalf of the UK Court service. It is Very Good it only costs around £30 to issue and this includes the court fee its open 24/7 you can log in and issue to anyone as long as you know the address. I then have a quite moan to the tenant that I can only enforce my claim with the bailiffs if I know their address!!! Usually they have done a runner within a week. The best one was I issued one while on holiday and the tenant was gone before I got back. I find most bad tenants have rent arrears so for £30 its worth sending a CCJ. Its one of the few ways of sending a dig they get the court documents within 48hrs. One tenant got all confused as it had rent arrears all over it he left because he thought it was my section 8 application. Oliver Hi I own a property which is well maintained as I am a responsible landlord The tenant informed me that while she was away on a mini break the electric tripped and her fridge/freezer defrosted which she discovered on her return. Within a couple of hours I visited the tenant to assess problem and my electrician was also able to make it the same day. It transpired that a faulty socket caused the trip. The electrician isolated the socket and eventually within a week rewired the faulty circuit. In the meantime the tenant has accumulated rent arrears and now claims that she had around £600 worth of food lost and wishes me to repay her £200 towards this (conveniently similar to the rent arrears) She claims that she has a contents insurance policy which is refusing to pay as her landlord is at fault. (I have had no evidence of this) As a landlord should I accept liability I would appreciate any help or advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 I think Simon's £5 a day late payment scheme is a pretty good deterrant and we've already added this into new AST's. I think that, along with the 'threat' of county court action should be sufficient to 'scare' any would be trickster into settling any outstanding debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 The £5 per day may be a good deterrent but I doubt very much it would stand up to a court's scrutiny. Relevant to the rent level, it is wholly disproportionate. It might be something a private landlord could argue in ignorance, but a professional agent is unlikely to encounter a similar level of leniency if challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 Interesting, do you think a % age would be better then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 Hi Agree wit GPEL - ref scrutiny ! but as i have pointed out - never been to court - so never tested ! But if it did get to court and it was disallowed - i would have lost nothing financially as it was "extra" - the whole point is, that in the T mind they could also be made to pay it, so they in in a lose situation regardless (Taking me to court cos they OWE ME MONEY-what a great idea ............)- it should be noted that i only really use it as a deterrent and in fact it is extrememly rare that i actually collect it ! Had an interesting arguement with the father of one T who was adamant that he wasn't paying the late fee - i nformed him that a bank or charge card will charge £30 - £60 on unauthorised borrowingings -his reply was that "yes ,but you are not a bank, are you ? My relply "No, that's why I am only charging you £5, a day not £30....!" The result was that a fig was agreed between us and he paid immediately over the phone with his credit card ----- with me removing "most of" the late payment/admin fees and an agreement that his son would vacate on the following weekend which he did ........... Mission accomplished very quickly and easily ..........the alternative eviction and court collection process is not a route i ever plan to take except in extreme circumstances! If i can sort 99% of my problems using this, without the grief of court etc ,I can live with what is statistically, and in reality a tiny risk element, with a far from "certain" failure to "pass" scrutiny -- then you know which methods i will continue to employ ................LOLOL I steer away from "%" as you would be astounded at the percentage of "Joe public" who dont understand what this is and how to work it out ...............LOL ( do yourself a survey of you tenants and ask them to tell you what 5% of their rent is - bet most couldn't tell you what 10% is.................Try it .......) Very worrying - but guess that's why i'm the LL and they are the T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Certainly gives me a very strong opinion on teaching methods and results in schools nowadays ....but that's another topic.... "Relevant to the rent level, it is wholly disproportionate." What is proportionate ? a bank will charge £30 on £1 or £1000 As a youngster i got myself into trouble with AMEX (charge card) who charged me £60 a month late payment fee on £100 for several months - as i was unemployed and in deep SxIT at the time;this went on for several months before i could sort it out .......... A £1 a day is no deterrent ! And £10 a day (£300 a month)is probably worth the T taking me to court for .......in case they win -- but i did think this thru very carefullY and purposely dont quote it as a percentage, as it would imply "interest" ;then anyone with any "basic maths skills" will work out that on an average rent of £600 that the APR is in excess of 300% pa WHICH ANY COURT WOULD ALMOST CERTAINLY(AND QUITE RIGHTLY) THROW OUT ............ I carefully put it right in the middleof the "grey" area!................! No £5 is high enough to cause T concern but low enough not to raise "eyebrows" enough to start thinking of challenging it - and even if it was challenged would it br financially viable to do so ............NOPE it creates the right attitude -just Bloody pay the bill before this gets out of hand !!!!! Result..............LOLOL (A opportunity for one and all try it and feed the results back on here and lets see if we can find the problems with it and then solve them ...............so far i have only had to use it around half a dozen times ...................(100% success rate ) ....so lets's test it somemore ! So it needs to be set categorically as a fixed "late payment fee" not quoted as interest.... The benefit of this of course is that you can then charge interest as well .....................Haha Also fees for letters, visits, DC fees, Q bouncing fees etc ................ DO NOT THINK I AM SOME SORT OF CON ARTIST - i have not needed to collect on this lot .............It is merely an avery good assistant in balancing out the extremely over weighted law in favour of the Tenant- the T of course has every right to legally challenge any one or all of them - but "makes my option more attractive" ie pay up NOW or leave NOW or BOTH ........ Also on the few ocassions i have had to invoke these terms - the word has got to other T's, sending a clear message (a lot of my props are very close to each other so i cant be seen to be a pushover !!!) T's opinion of me "Great LL, professional , flexible and understanding - VERY FIRM BUT VERY FAIR !!" I can live with that! Gareth Put £50 on the rent immediately ...........with the condition that you can answer this question to a T's satisfaction.... The Q.. "Why is this property £50 more expensive than the one 3 doors away ?........" I ALWAYS ask for high rent - it produces high expectations ( which i can meet..........LOL) and raises the quaility of the T (usually) also leaves me space to "play" to close a deal ie £625 for a 12 mth or £650 for a 6 mth ast etc Another FUNDAMENTAL RULE is " you can ALWAYS go down in price - it is EXCEPTIONAL that you can go up" so dont cut yourself off from this option by pricing too low..... Also with web advertisng you can pick up a lot of "non local" T's who are not aware of "mean" rents - but if they like you, and the prop, and the price ..Boom Boom Thank you very much .......... This raises another topic starter - We are in the people business as much if not more than the property business - so if they love the prop but dont like or trust YOU then i would suggest it highly unlikely that they will take the prop! mmmmmmmmm......so that puts price down the priority list then ???? in some cases definately .... Comments requested !!!!!! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 Q. "Why is this property £50 more expensive than the one 3 doors away ?........" A. Cos it's got a JACUZZI!!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 Very good.............! Burt think you might need a bit more than that ... Seriously, i am 100% behind your idea and think you should do it and NOW (I get more per prop on most of my portfolio than most of my competitiors) But not always directly from the tenant eg. Have another house 4bed (average rent on these is £900 in area) it was taking to long to fill so i "DROPPED" rent to £800 and filled it straight away So how is that more !................???????????? I bulit a garage on the back last summer and let the house, without the garage, for £800 - The Gar I have let seperately for £150 a month - I mentioned this house in an early couple of posts, it also has an ad hoarding fetching £120 pcm So my £800 is actually £1070 putting it a full 19% above the norm in the area!!!....................... .(And yes this one has Also got a Jacuzzi...!!!!!!!!!!) Obvoiusly you cant do this with all props - but careful buying will ensure your Portfolio IS Loaded with props like this !!!!>.............. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 Simon disproportionate because your costs are unlikely to increase by £5 per day and, like disrepair compensation, would be viewed relative to the rent level in place at that time, as a general rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 Drat, still not a super dooper senior member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 12 to go mate - on yer way......................! Keep talking ! haha ! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 sorry Simon I was being facetious. Oh I AM gonna do this, like I said I've already put about £50 onto the rents on houses we've just taken on, I just need to watch it closely now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralivesartnouveau Posted June 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Just a quick update The tenant paid the rent as promised on the 25th and set up a payment plan to remove arrears. The tenant was unable to produce a letter from her insurance company as it transpires that her policy unfortunately ran out five days prior to the incident. So we have moved on the electric fault is repaired and she has dropped her compensation claim. I may give her a couple of M&S vouchers next rent day we will see how it goes. Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Job Done ! I'd give her a bottle of wine (chilled ready in case the fridge has packed up agian !)haha ! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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