Simon Dewsberry Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Take a deposit legally outside TDS and you sit on it ? will this work ? May be we can't see the wood for the trees at the moment and we are missing something very obvious here Any deposit taken as security over the property; damage thereof and overdue rent etc should be placed in a protection scheme- .......Any money or asset or monies held or seen to be held as security over property is lilkely to get us into trouble so let us not hold any deposit on the property. So............ we need to find a way of holding security without holding secuirty on paper(if you see what i mean) ref "The property" What about...................... a deposit for the keys - nothing else - specifically the keys - not damage to property or overdue monies on rent or utilities - just the safe return of the keys............ ! Now i value my keys very highly; they are very important to me so the sort of deposit i would be looking for could be calculated by a figure coincidentally the same as approx 1.5 x a month's rent. Now should we find ourself in a position; when tenant has left - of having a credit balance on a tenants acc- due to this deposit, and a debit from unpaid rent or damage - it can only be right and proper that we return the resultant balance to the tenant .....................Can't it ? What did i miss - cos this sems a little too easy !!! Not sure wether you would want to include the "Key Deposit" details on the lease - probably better to have seperate documentation to "divorce the issue" and to avoid any confusion over security on property issues that seem to be fairly well documented at the moment !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not to be confused with "key money" a different thing altogether ! Simon going to bed now ! it's late ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 This is a good idea I think. Since non return of the keys would potentially mean a change of door lock = substantial amount of money. Not sure if you would be able to offset any balance owed in rent other damages etc if the keys are returned though. This is how businesses would run, but for some reason the government don't want us landlords to run like businesses, but like charities or councils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Change of door lock - £8 if DIY, £60 for a locksmith so suspect might be difficult to justify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted March 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Hi Matthew First - another point - you would have have written into key agreemant that key deposit money is returnable after 6/12 months regardless of when keys are returned ( just to stop the smartarse who goes and gets a copy set done and returns the originals for deposit return on day 2 of the tenancy !!) Also if the "key" is sailing to close to the wind in terms of TDS (linked to prop etc) then perhaps we could put a trinket on the keyring to use for deposit purposes ??( same 6/12 mth rule to apply) If i have an individual who owes me money and i have that money in my possesion then I will not be returning it!! PERIOD. The tenant will possibly have the option to take me to court because i have taken money from "wrong acc"- I will take my chances on that one !- worse case scenario is to pay the deposit back b4 court date - on the bond acc - then invoke all late payment fess, interest admin charges etc from lease on damage outstanding monies and, my favorite again - Debt collector plus fees - or you could counter sue as everyone on here seems to do ( to much time & trouble for my liking) So if they want to split into 2 seperate issues then it is going to cost them considerably more ..................... either way you are covered as i see it --Assuming key dep can be kept outside TDS What do we all think ? Simon PS "from Simon's rules of life"; 1.Don't do to others what you wouldn't have done to yourself 2.Don't mess people about with money ......EVER! 3.To catch a **** , Sometimes you need to be a ****!!! 4.Charity begins at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted March 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Hi GPEL What door locks are you using !??? Most of my doors are double glazed front and back the barrels cost a min £10 for old style and upto £45 for good new ones. DIY ??! My car doesn't run on fresh air to B&Q and my time is expensive ! Locksmith is £45 for call out plus lock £45 plus VAT - £105.75 now front - back, patio, window locks, shed, garage, gate and if it is a HMO probably 4 to 12 internal rooms door locks ! Not to mention 4 -12 copies of front door and several back doors maybe garage, shed and gate copies as well --At £3 - £7 a pop I really dont see a problem justifying deposit size! Looks to me like i have underestimated the deposit required!!!!! This is all really irrelevant and this conversation needs to be avoided as you will be drawn into agreeing that this is actually to cover what amounts to "damages" or "work required" to put right a problem at the property and put you firmly under TDS rules. Much better response would be to just say "that is the deposit we require. Full stop.If you feel £750 etc is to much to risk losing over a set of keys- then go and get them copied and bring me the originals back now ! and then you know your deposit is safe and should be returned after 6/12 mths! Also bear in mind we are not asking for a deposit on the property" I personally don't think the amount needs justifying - do we ask a solicitor to justify £200 per hour, a barrister £1000 per day ? There are plenty of things in life that dont need justifying "Those are my terms - if you dont like them then guess what ?"...................... But one that does is "How can the government justify attacking and creating this situation for private Landlords ?" I wont be holding my breath for the answer to that one ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTLWhizz Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Take a deposit legally outside TDS and you sit on it ? will this work ? May be we can't see the wood for the trees at the moment and we are missing something very obvious here Any deposit taken as security over the property; damage thereof and overdue rent etc should be placed in a protection scheme- .......Any money or asset or monies held or seen to be held as security over property is lilkely to get us into trouble so let us not hold any deposit on the property. So............ we need to find a way of holding security without holding secuirty on paper(if you see what i mean) ref "The property" What about...................... a deposit for the keys - nothing else - specifically the keys - not damage to property or overdue monies on rent or utilities - just the safe return of the keys............ ! Now i value my keys very highly; they are very important to me so the sort of deposit i would be looking for could be calculated by a figure coincidentally the same as approx 1.5 x a month's rent. Now should we find ourself in a position; when tenant has left - of having a credit balance on a tenants acc- due to this deposit, and a debit from unpaid rent or damage - it can only be right and proper that we return the resultant balance to the tenant .....................Can't it ? What did i miss - cos this sems a little too easy !!! Not sure wether you would want to include the "Key Deposit" details on the lease - probably better to have seperate documentation to "divorce the issue" and to avoid any confusion over security on property issues that seem to be fairly well documented at the moment !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not to be confused with "key money" a different thing altogether ! Simon going to bed now ! it's late ! I don't think these schemes will work. Basically, you can take the money outside of the tenancy deposit scheme if you want. But, then what happens if the tenant simply applies for the return of the deposit, and then asks you for the details of the TDS that you are enrolled in. Your answer is that there was no deposit, the money was for keys. The tenant takes you to court. Will the court accept that this deposit wasn't for the flat, but was for lessons in cake icing, part of which you'll return because you only gave them one lesson. Would the court accept that? What would you say if asked in court whether this money was actually a deposit outside the TDS? What if you swear in court that the money wasn't a deposit, but the tenant secretly recorded your conversations where you aren't returning part of the money because of damage to the carpet? And do you really think prospective tenants will be happy if you want to hold their deposit secretly, not on paper? I couldn't imagine facing up to a tenant and suggesting such a scheme. And if I did, I would expect the response of any tenant worth having to be "no TDS, no deal". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenners Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Hi all, Hoorah for common sense at last ....... the only person who isn't as "mad as a hatter" is BTLWhizz ..... I totally agree with all of BTLWhizzes comments ...... if we don't protect our tenants deposit money they will take us to court, the judge will decide that our madcap scheme (whichever one we choose for the many hair brained ideas discussed on this forum over the last few weeks), is a deposit in disguise AND THEN ..... The judge will award our tenant THREE TIMES the amount of the unsecured deposit as compensation and also force us to put the initial deposit into the custodial scheme. How many landlords would like to give their tenants THREE TIMES their deposit as a free, NON TAX DEDUCTABLE, gift ? Buy to let is a business .... approach it like businessmen / women .... follow the law ... follow the rules. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 C'mon guys !!! I rent somebody £250K worth of property with a measly £1000- £2000 deposit on it - and i can't even have that in my control ! We, the Landlords carry ALL of the risk - the British Legal System is one of the most respected in the world and has perfectly good provision for dealing with Landlords who try to rip people off by the tenant taking them to court _THIS IS AND HAS BEEN IN PLACE FOR MANY YEARS The TDS is unfair, not required, and in my opinion an infringement of civil rights. Now i am not prepared to roll over and be stamped on by the nanny state without at least exploring other options first - take a note from the french when something happens that they don't like -all respect - they stand their ground and fight. I believe the fig that will end up in "schemes " will be in excess of £1.2 Billion that is a lot of money to be left in charge of bureaucrats and it will be very interesting to read of the tales of woe on here in the next 6-12 months. But the upside is that there never is a downside ! every cloud has a silver lining etc and out of this banter have come some good side points which i will be incorporating in my lease -regardless. Maybe we cant completely avoid "TDS" but if that is all that these points acheive then they weren't wasted ! It's not over yet ! Do we accept that all monies held as deposits in all areas of business should be held in such schems as well ? I sell furniture 7 days a week - am i going to expected to lodge all of these monies in "schemes" at some later date ? Should all solicitors client acconts ( house deposits - probate cases - deceased people's liquid estate etc ) should they all not be in some scheme ! and come to think of it when i "deposit" funds in to my bank acc- building soc-pension fund (yep - that's agood one !)- life assurance ? Should all these not be in protection schemes, as we now in world where NO ONE is capable or to be trusted ? OR CAN WE HAVE SOME COMMON SENSE AND JUST PUNISH THE TRANSGRESSORS ? APPARENTLY THE GOVERNMENT HAVE MADE THEIR CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webb Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I thought a rental deposit was tenant's money, not to be confused with landlord's earnings from rents, furniture sales, fees or whatever. If the gov. pass a law about how tenant's money is to be looked after, so be it, we elected it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTLWhizz Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 C'mon guys !!! I rent somebody £250K worth of property with a measly £1000- £2000 deposit on it - and i can't even have that in my control ! We, the Landlords carry ALL of the risk - the British Legal System is one of the most respected in the world and has perfectly good provision for dealing with Landlords who try to rip people off by the tenant taking them to court _THIS IS AND HAS BEEN IN PLACE FOR MANY YEARS The TDS is unfair, not required, and in my opinion an infringement of civil rights. Now i am not prepared to roll over and be stamped on by the nanny state without at least exploring other options first - take a note from the french when something happens that they don't like -all respect - they stand their ground and fight. I believe the fig that will end up in "schemes " will be in excess of £1.2 Billion that is a lot of money to be left in charge of bureaucrats and it will be very interesting to read of the tales of woe on here in the next 6-12 months. But the upside is that there never is a downside ! every cloud has a silver lining etc and out of this banter have come some good side points which i will be incorporating in my lease -regardless. How do landlords take all of the risk? If the tenant causes damage, we can still have appropriate costs taken from the deposit. The public and government attitude seems to be that Landlords "rip off" their tenants, meaning that when a landlord takes even reasonable costs from a deposit, it's widely seen as a ripoff. With a government agency effectively condoning monies being taken out of the deposit when appropriate, this can only help us. As it's not just us saying that something needs to be paid for, it's a third party as well. Maybe we cant completely avoid "TDS" but if that is all that these points acheive then they weren't wasted ! It's not over yet ! Do we accept that all monies held as deposits in all areas of business should be held in such schems as well ? I sell furniture 7 days a week - am i going to expected to lodge all of these monies in "schemes" at some later date ? Should all solicitors client acconts ( house deposits - probate cases - deceased people's liquid estate etc ) should they all not be in some scheme ! and come to think of it when i "deposit" funds in to my bank acc- building soc-pension fund (yep - that's agood one !)- life assurance ? Should all these not be in protection schemes, as we now in world where NO ONE is capable or to be trusted ? OR CAN WE HAVE SOME COMMON SENSE AND JUST PUNISH THE TRANSGRESSORS ? APPARENTLY THE GOVERNMENT HAVE MADE THEIR CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure you're a reasonable person in real life, and if I bought furniture from you everything would go well. But reading these bits it sounds like you are perhaps becoming a bit, erm, overemotional about this. Perhaps you could go on a long walk in the country to calm down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Hi BTLWhizz A walk in the country !!! I am probably one of the calmest patient people you could ever meet ! I also have a sense of humour ! In a perfect world this scheme would be fine - it has been put in place because a handful of tenants have been ripped off- which is deplorable and i do not condone. If all of the Landlords using this forum calculated from their first day of letting 2 figures First - How much money have they had to dig into their own pocket to cover damages plus rent they never got etc which had to be written off (LOSSES if you like) Second - How much of the tenants money have they kept over the years which they really shouldn't have - (SURPLUS if you like) I think it is safe to say that if there is any one who can make their Surplus bigger than their LOSSESS they will be able to be counted on one hand ! That clearly puts us the Landlords in a far bigger "risk" position statiscally - I'm sure you will agree ? Now let's compound this situation with "TDS" and remove the last vestage of control from the Landlord ! Having dealt with hundreds of Tenants - (the vast majority who are sensible fair and amicable) my mind wanders to those who were not and the situations i found myself in - as a recall these people and their actions - i think about what would have happened if i had had to finalise matters through "TDS" and the amount of work i would have had to have completed ! and this is something i would like to avoid if it is at all possible- we have kicked some ridiculous ideas around on here and - put them to bed. If you have a fairly small portfolio them as i have said before you would be well advised to use " TDS" with no further thought to the matter and just cross your fingers that you dont get a "badone" but if you have "been there before" with complete nutcases(by that a mean the A1 tenant who turns into a raving lunatic in the last few weeks) then you will understand where i am comming from! The reality of this is exactly as you have pointed out - if you take a dep then it will have to be protected - for credibility if nothing else! but without exploring other options we are never going to find them - do you not agree? As for Landlords opinions; a poll now and another in 12 months would be interesting! Simon (the calm one!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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