Smokers

[Mortitia]

Hi all,

I am struggling to let one of my places at the moment despite using an agent, local shop windows and Gumtree - probably because my conditions are too strict in that I don't do DSS or single mums. Most of the renting world seem to be on DSS at the moment - and I am not in an area of high unemployment.

As most of you do I always say 'no smokers' as it invalidates insurance and spoils the property but often people turn up who reek of fags insisting they will smoke outside the house or that they don't smoke at all. I have let to the 'smoke outside brigade' in the past and this usually ends up with dog ends all over the garden.

What do you all do about this - turn a blind eye, ask tenant to go? Any sensible suggestions welcome.

Mortitia

[Selkirk]

Hi Mortitia

Personal opinion.

I won't entertain anybody that I'm not entirely happy with, so I would say stick to what you are happy with.

When it comes to smokers, to me it just means you will have to be prepared to decorate a lot sooner, if you accept that point then ok. You could say the same about animals, potentially they can cause just as much damage or mess if the owners are not responsible enough.

I'm suprised you say a smoker invalidates the insurance if it did then I'd change insurers, how would it stand if a visitor smoked and caused a fire?

Maybe you need to be a bit more flexible in your approach, I think it's the conduct of the person themselve and not what they do.

Cheers

Selkirk

[Mortitia]

Hi Selkirk,

Yes all my insurers - (I do a few different ones) say 'no smokers' and no smoking guests is also in my agreement.

Just discussed this with my agent and she agrees no property on their books allows smokers. The smell left behind can almost never be erradicated and she told me some viewers just walk out if the place has been smoked in previously.

Anyway good news maybe as I have viewings pm and will stick it out! Thanks.

Mortitia

[Babyfirefly677]

Hi all,

I am struggling to let one of my places at the moment despite using an agent, local shop windows and Gumtree - probably because my conditions are too strict in that I don't do DSS or single mums. Most of the renting world seem to be on DSS at the moment - and I am not in an area of high unemployment.

As most of you do I always say 'no smokers' as it invalidates insurance and spoils the property but often people turn up who reek of fags insisting they will smoke outside the house or that they don't smoke at all. I have let to the 'smoke outside brigade' in the past and this usually ends up with dog ends all over the garden.

What do you all do about this - turn a blind eye, ask tenant to go? Any sensible suggestions welcome.

Mortitia

My goodness I am not surprised you can not rent out your property, it sounds like YOU are the problem as you don't seem to be able to choose good tenants so that is more about your standards than people who rent houses, also what is wrong with single mums? as you do not allow them to rent your obviously too good for single mum's property, I just hope you never end up being a single mum and that you are treated like dirt like you treat them.

I am a single mum and I rent (yes believe it or not I managed to rent a property with the owner knowing I was on my own with my sons) and I pay my own rent which is just over £2000 a month and I have been a good tenant as the fact that I separated from their father years ago has no reflection on anything.

To be honest I think you need to a have a rethink about your prejudices and morals as I would turn down your property, people like you make me very sad and angry.

[Reg]

There's nothing wrong with having standards. If it was your property you may change your views.

It is very honorable that being a single mum, you pay your own rent, if only every single mum was like you, an ex-tenant of mine who happened to be a sinlge mum was a lying scumbag, who tried to commit fraud against me AND the council and her boyfriend who lived there but wasn't supposed to threatened to attack me with a machete

[Mortitia]

Well here is a prime example of single mum problemos from the affluent Babyfirefly making wild accusations without thought or experience of the situation. Calm down dear or it will affect your blood pressure.

I am delighted that she can rent reliably and responsibly at £2000 and month not be on benefit. Must have a good job or fleecing the ex. at that price. I think I might buy rather than rent in her situation but let me continue.

The type of single mother I was referring to is the industy standard type described so eloquently by Reg and who Baby has obviously not met in her social circle.

These young women are a nightmare in society and if Baby had read more carefully she would have realised I am renting out a 1 bed house - too small for mother, baby and the inevitable 'boyfriend' who moves in and stuffs up her benefit claim and her rent to the landlord.

In part of my day job I act for a private landlord with many 100's of properties specialising in letting to DSS. I do the accounting. I see many young - under 25 single mums. They expect to get a house/flat, live on benefit, not work and carry on as they did when single - and if they get 2 kids then it's twice the money!! Hey!

Often they have no idea who the father is nor do they care as they just wanted a baby and to play house at the taxpayers expense. About 76% on my books are in arrears with their rent or benefit has been stopped as in the case described by Reg. Earlier on this year I thought by boss's firm might go into meltdown just on the amount of rent owed by single mums. This is a nationwide problem.

Nothing wrong with my morals and they won't be changing. At 54 but think I'm 32 unlikely to be a single mum - LOL! On the subject of children and babies - I couldn't eat a whole one.

Mortitia

[J4L]

Have to say

Hat's off to you babyfirefly677, I totally agree with you.

Mortitia, I don't think I read anywhere in your posts that it was a one bed property either!!

Think you've made some damning comments about this poster and a large chunk of society but I'll leave her and them to defend that, for now!

Mortitia, I think you need to relax a little on the information you give out when advertising.

I manage in excess of 200 properties and trust me you'll NEVER see an advert of mine that says

"No DSS, No Benefits, No Pets, Smokers etc etc."

Now that DOESN'T mean that I DO accept them, it just doesn't say that I don't! Huge difference here.

The rental market is like a pyramid where the baseline is your 'average person' on 'average wages' or 'benefits' and the rental prices are structured around this and the local LHA figures.

The higher up the pyramid you go the higher the rental price is and the less people there are that can afford this.

If you then take out smokers, pet owners etc you are narrowing your target market so of COURSE it's going to take much longer to find a tenant.

Effectively what you're doing is cutting this pyramid in half 'vertically'!!!

Don't know if that makes sense in writing but generally I draw a pyramid for new Landlords and it shows it better.

Once you get some responses YOU decide (by meeting them, or getting your agent to visit their present home) who you accept for the tenancy.

You may get 10 parties interested and 9 may be 'undesirable' but you may just find one that suits.

I'd say that single mums are the BEST renters, well certainly in my experience.

Look at this laterally.

They may have to move their children's school to find alternative / better accomodation ( i.e. your property) these single mums are more likely to stay because they don't want to be moving schools again in 6 months time so will do their utmost to pay rent on time and look after the property because they don't WANT to be evicted.

Moving as we're told is one of the most stressful things in life and I'm sure any tenant doesn't want to be doing this twice a year so most play ball and behave.

These are just a few things we consider when deciding on a tenancy application and the list is not exhaustive just a few ideas for you.

You say you do the accounting for a private Landlord with many 100's of properties and that he specialises in DSS tenants?

You say that many are in arrears so much so that you were worried he may go bust?

Can I suggest that this Landlord doesn't know what he's doing?

Can I suggest that the properties these people reside in are of low quality?

Can I suggest that the Landlord or his staff do not know the Housing Benefit system?

Can I suggest that the Landlord or his staff do not know how to communicate effectlively?

Can I suggest that the Landlord or his staff have a superiority complex, as you appear to have?

Can I suggest that the Landlord or his staff take on tenants without checking them out first?

Can I suggest that the Landlord or his staff accept the first person waving a bundle of cash without properly getting to know them?

Can I suggest that the Landlord or his staff do not take Guarantors on any of these tenants?

50% of our tenants fall into this, your pet hate, category and NONE are behind with their rent!

Why do you think this is?

I'll tell you, it's because we can answer a resounding NO to all the suggestions I made above.

Unfortunately I think you sit in a nice warm office listening to the staff or the Landlord directly, bemoaning the antics of the very people HE or HIS STAFF have placed in properties. UH!!!!

Blame can only be proportioned in one direction I'm afraid!

As the Rodent sometimes states

"remember when you point a finger there are always 3 pointing back at you"

(never thought I'd end up using Rodent's material but this one is apt for this post)

[Simon Dewsberry]

Ha ..so you did learn something then !!!

On 2K rent a mth i would be buying not renting ...and not just one prop either !

[trustee]

i am new to this renting thing but there are girls out there getting pregnant just to get flats or houses but there are also ones out there who are good with paying rent etc and were not planning to be on the dss with a child.

i have got a single pregnant girl in my house and her rent is always on time and she has returned to collage because she eventually wants to go back to work. so i think like with all things the bad single mums get the good ones painted the same colour which is wrong to judge every one the same.

round our way now the council have changed things we now have a bidding system and single mums have to go into bedsits for about 6 months before the council will even think of offering them the flat so all those bad ones wont get the property like they thought they would, so will think a little bit more before ripping a private landlord off cause the council are not going to rehouse them.

Being a smoker myself we do take smokers in as well, but we dont allow pets.

alot of landlords in our local newspapers have so many rules such as no pets no smokers no dss no kids that they are having to lower their prices rent wise because their houses are remaining empty. Good for those landlords who will take tenents in with less restrictions mind cause they can charge higher rents.

[Mortitia]

J4L

I do not believe in wasting tenants time so setting out my stall in my ad saves them and me time and does not get up false hopes. In my area this is the standard way to advertise - I am not doing anything out of the ordinary for this area but it is interesting to note that some of you find this abhorrent. I just don't see the point in seeing 9 people who are totally unsuitable to get one suitable when I could have pointed this out in my advert. Put it down to regional difference in attitude - and you are talking Wales.

No offence meant but it is different from letting in - say London.

On the single mother issue - I am sure you let to a lot of single mums, it would be hard not to as S. Wales has more than anywhere else in the UK. I would argue that in your area single mums are NOT likely to upsticks and go and live in London or anywhere more than 30 miles from where they were born. They probably get a lot of family and friend support and this makes them more steady and reliable with rent and schooling.

Geographically I am letting some way south in an area with a much more transient, mobile, diverse population and I am commenting on what I see everyday - young women who are often a long way from family or not in touch with them at all. The pervading atmosphere is one of 'I want to do what I want' - at the tax payers expense. Some of these women are not more than children mentally and have not thought beyond next week let alone schooling of their child in a steady reliable fashion.

Yes, I am disciminating and Trustee you are very lucky with your tenant but I don't want to take that risk having been in the situation of described by Reg in this post once before and seen many similar cases first hand.

I would like to add that the DSS in my area is not geared up for the large amount of work it has to undertake in dealing with housing for adults with learning difficulties, drug dependents, immigrants, assylum seekers and just about anyone else who needs assistance whilst deciding to live in this affluent south coast connurbation. Co-operation with private landlords is not always ideal and the social landlord I refer to has borrowed heavily to build new or convert many old buildings for the purpose of housing DSS customers. Cashflow is tight even now.

The list J4L sets out is basic commonsense in any rental business but incoming cash is essential to make things work and when there are a large amount of tenants in arrears with benefit suspended for a myriad of reasons it is an uphill battle.

Meanwhile have been advertising 2 props on Gumtree - what a load of scammers that has turned up. As soon as ID is mentioned they're off!

Mortitia

[J4L]

I totally understand where you are going with your reasoning but my point is that 'regardless' of whether you like it or not you will get 9 bad ones to one good one, so don't worry about wasting 'their' time worry more about getting someone in.

It's all about how you deal with people and believe me I get tenants every day viewing properties saying

"Do you take DSS, Benefits etc because most of the agents around here don't"

My answer is ALWAYS, "yes of course we will CONSIDER this.

I don't care what part of the country you are in, "setting your stall out" as you put it is going to deter people from calling you and that good tenant is going somewhere else. Of course, once you've got the people looking then I agree it's down to YOU to choose wisely and sometimes this can be guess work but you have to then get your safety nets in place "just in case"

Your advert reads as such:-

Really nice one bedroom apartment for rent - £450pcm.

But I'm really fussy on who I want to live in there because I've heard some bad stories / or had a bad experience before!

I refuse to listen to your story even though it may be totally genuine because of course every person who claims benefits HAS to be lazy and sit around all day playing on the play station. Wouldn't surprise me if December comes and you decide to not pay your rent and throw a big party in MY apartment and all your friends will trash the place. Once you wake up in the morning you're bound to think 'b**s to this I can't be bothered cleaning up so I'll do a bunk and find some other mug who will take me in'

I think your comment that I'm very 'lucky' with my tenants is quite patronising as you don't know me or them. If you knew me you'd understand that I know what I'm doing and I do it well, regardless of where I'm based and the demographics of my local society.

People are people and if you treat them as such you'll get much better responses.

Gone are the days where so few Landlords could maximise their portfolios by 'creaming off' the very best tenants for themselves. There are too many Landlords out there now which has increased the competition and left properties standing empty for many months such as yours.

You say co operation is not always ideal with private Landlords? Who's fault is this? The council? The Landlords?

I guess this could even be a bit of both but believe me, once the homeless department get someone in who needs housing who do you think they call? The guy that is fair, the one they can speak to, the one that goes the extra mile to help them out, and the one who provides 'good' accomodation. It's the one that deals with repairs quickly and communicates with tenants throuhout their stay and not just at the beginning and then leaves them to their own devices.

You know in my area there are numerous agents but generally the council come to me.

If your Landlord boss has invested heavily then he must also know that this industry is not an easy way to make money, he has to put systems in place that will 'guarantee' that his business, (and let's not forget this, it IS a business) is a successful one. There are plenty of Landlords out there who thought the housing market was a 'simple' way to make money but times have changed and this is no longer the case. That's why so many agents are going under and so many Landlords are selling on. I honestly hope your guy doesn't go the same way but he needs to look at his systems and the way he runs his business rather than 'directly' at his bottom line. Good effective Communication costs nothing and I'd guess that whomever is in charge of running this 'empire' is not very good at it.

How far South are you cos for a fee I can come and take a look at this and turn this around for him within 12 months.

Yes my list is 'basic commonsense' as you put it but I know of a dozen local agents that can't even talk to people PROPERLY so what does that tell you? All the local agents lack 'basic' common sense? Thus lack business knowledge? Have unhappy tenants? c**P properties and subsequently have larger void periods? Poor bottom lines, bigger problems?

All of the above!

Once people stop pidgeon holing prospective tenants they'll understand that they too can pick the cream tenants, It's just that I open my doors to all comers in the first place and THEN i choose.

If there are a large amount of tenants in arrears then there's only one person to blame.

The guy that put them in, the guy that referenced them incorrectly, the guy that doesn't know the HB system as well as he should, the guy that can't communicate, the guy that doesn't know how to collect money, . . . . . . . .

Apologies I seem to be going back to my 'basic common sense' list!!

There's your answer!!

Try this for me please . . . .

Ask your guy to give me a call (seriously) and I'll lend an ear and maybe some ideas on how to move forward.

You take your "No DSS, smokers, pets" sentence out of your advert for 1 week and see how much of a response you get.

Let me know, I'll be intrigued to know if you find someone or get a better call response without it in there.

[Reg]

J4L, your view is a fair one, but it's from a letting agent's point of view.

The difference between a private landlord and a letting agent is, should a tenant start misbehaving or trash the place then the letting agent wont have to pay for all the damage caused as it is not their property.

I my opinion the right balance for a private landlord when marketing their property is adopt abit of caution (Moritia strategy), yet not be too unfriendly in the advert (J4L strategy). But I personally don't see the point of not stating "No DSS" if you're not happy taking DSS on.

[J4L]

J4L, your view is a fair one, but it's from a letting agent's point of view.

The difference between a private landlord and a letting agent is, should a tenant start misbehaving or trash the place then the letting agent wont have to pay for all the damage caused as it is not their property.

I my opinion the right balance for a private landlord when marketing their property is adopt abit of caution (Moritia strategy), yet not be too unfriendly in the advert (J4L strategy). But I personally don't see the point of not stating "No DSS" if you're not happy taking DSS on.

Whatever makes you think i'm not a landlord also?

[Reg]

Whether you are a landlord or an agent deciding how to maket a property is a subjective issue. I personally have some restrictions but market the property at 5% below average market rent to maintain interest. This strategy may not be right for everyone but it's right for me.

[trustee]

i dont no if anyone seen the programme on tv. but apparently they are on about making a law review and taking some of the tenents rights off them and giving back to the landlords, because the programme says too many landlords are losing their properties due to bad paying tenents and the tenents have been given too many benefits and the landlords have hardly any. so this may help alot of the situations above if they do this.

at the moment i have a tenent phoning me up threatening me and threatening other tenents in the house,doing drugs etc etc, and i still have to let him stay in there till his 2 months notice is up and then may have to take him to court which i feel is all wrong, if a tenent is threatening and drugs etc involved i dont think u should have to have them in your house.

[J4L]

i dont no if anyone seen the programme on tv. but apparently they are on about making a law review and taking some of the tenents rights off them and giving back to the landlords, because the programme says too many landlords are losing their properties due to bad paying tenents and the tenents have been given too many benefits and the landlords have hardly any. so this may help alot of the situations above if they do this.

at the moment i have a tenent phoning me up threatening me and threatening other tenents in the house,doing drugs etc etc, and i still have to let him stay in there till his 2 months notice is up and then may have to take him to court which i feel is all wrong, if a tenent is threatening and drugs etc involved i dont think u should have to have them in your house.

You don't necessarily need to wait 2 months there's always the section 8 route and you may find that he'll go of his own accord once served this.

[J4L]

Whether you are a landlord or an agent deciding how to maket a property is a subjective issue. I personally have some restrictions but market the property at 5% below average market rent to maintain interest. This strategy may not be right for everyone but it's right for me.

Totally agree that it's subjective, but would you not agree that an agent who does this every day would have more experience and knowledge about what brings people in rather than a Landlord who occasionally pops a card in the post office window??

Your strategy is fine, I do this all the time. As you say it maintains interest.

Another way of marketing a property, just for future reference, is to price it much higher than the LHA figures, thus you'll lose the interest of people on benefits straight away. The property has to be A1 condition to be able to warrant this though.

And my point originally was to not say NO DSS, this strategy above works every time and once you get your 'preferred' clients over the door or on the phone you can reduce the price accordingly.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. . . . .

[Reg]

That's a good idea to deter DSS from applying by pricing much higher than local LHA rent. Although this could risk a void period and like you said, the property would have to be in A1 condition.

And if like trustee2 mentions, that laws might change so landlords can get their properties back alot quicker, this would help everyone and lot more landlords would then take on DSS more freely.

[J4L]

That's a good idea to deter DSS from applying by pricing much higher than local LHA rent. Although this could risk a void period and like you said, the property would have to be in A1 condition.

And if like trustee2 mentions, that laws might change so landlords can get their properties back alot quicker, this would help everyone and lot more landlords would then take on DSS more freely.

It takes exactly the same amount of time and money to evict a person on DSS as it does a working tenant.

Don't understand this comment really.

[Reg]

What i meant was, if the tenancy laws were changed more in favour of the landlord and taking away some of the rights of bad tenants (as trustee2 mentioned earlier in this post) then landlords would be less fussy when considering prospective tenants

[J4L]

What i meant was, if the tenancy laws were changed more in favour of the landlord and taking away some of the rights of bad tenants (as trustee2 mentioned earlier in this post) then landlords would be less fussy when considering prospective tenants

Again I repeat, it takes the same amount of time to get a DSS tenant out and from my experiences if a property is managed correctly from day 1 then damage to a property would be kept to a minimum anyway.

Remind me again why DSS tenants are so bad??

Not a patronising ? I'm just interested to know what people's experiences of these so called 'bad DSS tenants' do to properties that 'working people don't!

Let's take a dog owner for e.g. I KNOW what damage a dog can do but we still have to decide whether a dog will do this in our property when an owner says it's well behaved, so we'd inspect the house they are at NOW and look for evidence of chewing, messing, scratching etc in their present accomodation and if there IS evidence of this then we'd either :-

1) turn their application down

2) Request a much larger bond to accept them with the dog.

If you do these things then of course you are reducing the risk massively that they are lying about the pet!

These are what I call 'safety nets' and I put these in place on EVERY property so we always have a 'reasonable' way of collecting money should the let go pear shaped.

So what do I do with DSS tenants??

Exactly the same as if they were working / and/or had a dog.

I'm visiting their current home and checking for cleanliness / tidiness etc i'll ask to see their rent receipts if they have them or their bank statements showing that a regular standing order is paid to the LL/LA.

I'm taking references from their previous LL/LA to ensure that their " oh I always pay my rent on time" is absolutely true.

I not only take their last LL/LA I'll go back even further, and reference them on a much previous LL/LA.

If they have nothing to hide then they will offer up this information very easily.

Private LL's (and some agents) don't always check out their tenants correctly or as thoroughly as I do so of course we are going to have a better success rate than they do but I see this as my role in this, it's part of the service I offer, and this is what's being bought initially.

Like I've said many times before, LL's are too quick to take the first person that comes along waving a wad of cash. They are more interested in "getting the place filled" than looking at the bigger picture and thinking of what could happen 6 months down the road.

I've discussed this with so many LL's I know this is true but I'd rather have a whining LL on my case because a place is empty than just throw anyone in.

Here's an example:-

New LL approaches me by way of referral, and has 2 properties empty. She's flapping (understandably) because she has 2 extra mortgages to pay.

1st property - local lad ( LL knows the family) calls me and says he's interested. I perform a viewing and ask him to fill MY application form in. 4 days later and I've not received it back and not taken a deposit so naturally I've left the property open to viewings but not a great deal of interest.

LL calls me to ask what's happening because the property has now been empty for a fortnight. (remember here that I've helped evict the previous tenant because the previous LA and the LL didn't have a clue what they were doing) So an empty property after 2 weeks of pressure from us on the tenant and she's up & gone owing 6 months rent and slight damage to property!!!

I'm getting pressure from LL after a fortnight empty and no one in, but no pressure on previous LA for letting this tenant live rent free for 6 months!!!!

Another few days pass and I get the application form back but no holding deposit, I have the sense to go straight for a Guarantor with this kid, call it a 6th sense if you like but I took this before I had any chance to do other references. Met the mum, very nice, looked at the house, very tidy etc so signed her in there and then.

TWO days later and into the 3rd week, LL says she's spoken to the prospective tenant and his mum and she's agreed to let him move in on the following Monday because he's told her that the local bond board are covering his bond and he's applied for a crisis loan to pay the months rent in advance. That was on the Friday!!

I advise strongly against this, but am told, "don't worry I know the family it'll be ok, he's got everything in place."

Monday arrives and I call the Landlord to retrieve the keys she had back to go and do some bits to the property over the weekend and she tells me she's already given them to him and I only need to go and sign the contracts!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So he has a 6 month contract, the keys and we've received NO MONEY!

That was in July, guess what??

Bond board take a fortnight to process the bond!

He smartly thinks that if he doesn't tell them he's in they'll do this for him. One thing the bond board do for tenants is help them do all their housing benefit forms and submit them. Housing now request his tenancy agreement 3 weeks after he's in there and he can't do this via the bond board because the agreement is dated 13th July and they'll then find out he was lying and won't bond him which is exactly what happened.

So housing look at his application and his situation have now decided they'll only back-date a claim for 4 weeks and he's not got a bond. So here we are 10th September, tenant been in TWO months, I've managed to drag £160 out of him, and we've got no bond! We're still awaiting housing payment but today I've been told that they've not put it into payment because they are awaiting proof of income (they think he's working) and it's not looking great.

Rent due again on Sunday = 3 x £420 rent - £160 paid = £1100 arrears already and no bond!!!! Plus doesn't look like housing will pay him let alone back date any payments.

Long winded story I know but this is the pressure that LL's put themselves under every day by not following a particular procedure and worrying too much over a void period. As you can see, she might as well have left the place empty for another week or so and this would never have happened.

My point in all this is as long as you know what you are doing and you check people out correctly you shouldn't get these problems at all or at least you'll minimise the risk of this happening.

I know this post is about DSS tenants and this is a horror story to show what CAN happen but it's also to show people who is to blame.

Not MY fault is it? I advised against this. I'm sure we'll get through it, thank god I took the guarantor when I did, what if mum had refused after he'd had the keys?? She's potentially given her house for a year free of charge.

DSS tenants can be fine, even the bad ones, but this is the risk business you are in and the most anyone should lose, potentially is a months equivalent rent if it's done correctly but then you have another safety net in place to cover that in the form of a guarantor.

DSS tenants are only bad if LL's allow them to be!!!!!!!!!

It has nothing to do with changing laws!

Let's not get onto property inspections cos that's a whole different topic!