corkie Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Hello, we have had a prickly relationship with our tenants of 2 years and their tenancy is up in 2 weeks. Yippee!! We don't want to see them particularly and have asked them to return the keys to the letting agent where they had received them at the start of the tenancy. We have said that we will meet them the next day to do the inventory. They say they will not hand in keys until the inventory is done. Where do we stand? Can I ask for the keys as soon as we enter the door? This guy is the type that has had his contract stuck to his fridge for the last 2 years and is heavily involved in CAB. There is no love lost between us, and He obviously thinks we will trash our house to gleen some money out of him!! I am reluctant to return the deposit to him on that day, but have no intention of holding onto it for more than 7 days. Is this another reason for him to hold onto the keys? I really feel I'm being held to ransom. Any help would be great Please advise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Why wind him up ? Just meet him ....do inventory ...get it signed......agree figs if necessary.......take keys and inform him that cheque will be in the post within a week ....if he refuses to hand over keys then explain that ; 1. the question of " has he actually handed over the prop" is raised and if not (as he still has keys then clearly rent will be applied until he does hand over !...deducted from his bond...) or 2. explain that as he has the keys you are at risk of him entering prop so will have to call a locksmith and have locks changed immediately ...the cost of this, will be deducted from his bond .... I NEVER hand over bond immediately as problems usually come to light over next few days when house is "deep cleaned" eg washing machine leaking/not working, filth behind wardrobes, chest etc I also, when pushed, i remind them that i have 28 days to return dep/bond (as per ast ...although on newer ast's TDS etc this is now down to 10 !.......this is going to depend on what your ast states !) and point out that they paid their rent when due NOT 28 DAYS early !!!!!and you will be doing doing exactly the same.... Firm but fair ! i am not a fan of being held to ransom either!!! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugsy Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Too right, I have never heard of a landlord who hands over deposit on vacating day. There is always a more thorough inspection required once the tenant has left and moved their belongings. I always give the deposit back within 5 working days and submit a detailed report for any further discrepancies that come to light. Follow Rodent's advice, it is totally accurate and works both ways. He must surrender keys for you to complete check out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Although I agree that a thorough inventory check be done this should be done at the check out and not 2,3, or more days down the road when the tenant has no keys and no way of proving/disproving that discrepancies have not been 'fabricated' (as they have done in the past!) Simon "explain that as he has the keys you are at risk of him entering property" Likewise a LL has the keys and can 'fabricate' discrepancies, the Tenant who requires the return of their deposit for their next property now has to either go cap in hand to a friend or relative to borrow their next D or they agree to 'fabricated' discrepancies to get as much as they can back! The TDS schemes will hopefully stop this low life behaviour of some LL's who use deposits as a bit of a cash cow for extra beer money. At least with such schemes the Tenants are safe in the knowledge that they do have an arbitrator on their side, should they need it, but it doesn't stop the 'needy' Tenants just agreeing to deductions because they need to fund their next home. Maybe the government will set up a sort of 'deposit loan scheme' for such Tenants whilst they go to arbitration! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Although I agree that a thorough inventory check be done this should be done at the check out and not 2,3, or more days down the road when the tenant has no keys and no way of proving/disproving that discrepancies have not been 'fabricated' (as they have done in the past!) TDS arbitration now in place to prevent this from happening. Simon "explain that as he has the keys you are at risk of him entering property" Likewise a LL has the keys and can 'fabricate' discrepancies, the Tenant who requires the return of their deposit for their next property now has to either go cap in hand to a friend or relative to borrow their next D or they agree to 'fabricated' discrepancies to get as much as they can back! As T agreement is finished then he has no further right of entry so what possible reason is there to retain them ....LL as owner clearly does have right of entry!!! (all academic as T could easily have had a spare set cut !) As for dep for next prop ....if T wants cash earlier than when it is due, effectively he is asking me for a loan ...i am a LL not a bank, although with the right person i am prepared to discuss terms!!!! ...their financial affairs are non of my business and i intend to keep it that way ....Why should LL hand Dep over early ....is it fair to expect T to vacate early cos LL needs prop back before agreed time ..........? on an equal par Is it fair to ask for a T to pay his rent a month earlier than agreed ? and should they fail to do either then hold them to ransom ? Also "generally" the type of T who needs this is the one who has been a perpetual late payer with rent ........so explain that as they have set the precedent on the importance of paying / not paying punctually you will be adopting the same approach !!!!! what goes around..... ( now i'm just being plain nasty !!!!!!) Also b4 Dep is handedover i want proof that utilities/CT have been paid in the form of a final bill stamped etc ...chances of this being produced on last day of T vitually NIL so upto T how fast he can produce these..... Dep on the day .......NOPE!(or at least very rare ..unless an HMO which is a bit different!) The TDS schemes will hopefully stop this low life behaviour of some LL's who use deposits as a bit of a cash cow for extra beer money. At least with such schemes the Tenants are safe in the knowledge that they do have an arbitrator on their side, should they need it, but it doesn't stop the 'needy' Tenants just agreeing to deductions because they need to fund their next home. Clearly it will stop fabrications. "LL use dep as cash cow for extra beer money" I pay a lot of money to insure deps ....so i will use it for whatever i choose to use it for ....I hold in excess of 30K in deposits ...thats a lot of beer !!! As long as dep is returned (as i always do!) and insured or lodged so T WILL get it ..then dont see what your problem is .....as stated TDS now sorted that... Maybe the government will set up a sort of 'deposit loan scheme' for such Tenants whilst they go to arbitration! Maybe they will. Better idea would be for government to just give it to them ...you know a gift ....like they do with the rent for all the immigrants arriving on our fine shores each day ..... Have just let a 6let to council for failed asylum seekers ...the cash they are paying out to me in rent and on personal effects for "tenants" is astounding ......so i am going to sort of few more out like this ..The spec in these houses is far higher than what you would find in most homes .... but that's another thread. Get real! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkie Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Didn't really expect a lecture on the morality of Tds J4L!!! I am not an unscrupulous LL that you are referring to. Indeed in all the years that I have let property I have never come across such a tenant in all my dealings. Glad you got it off your chest though, but maybe you need to be subscribing to the tenants forum. Thanks to everyone else though. Very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Didn't really expect a lecture on the morality of Tds J4L!!! I am not an unscrupulous LL that you are referring to. Indeed in all the years that I have let property I have never come across such a tenant in all my dealings. Glad you got it off your chest though, but maybe you need to be subscribing to the tenants forum. Thanks to everyone else though. Very helpful. Hi Corkie In order for discussion we need different points of view, and J4L(Gareth) never fails to be different ......Hahaha and stimilates some ridiculous discussions ...but we do check under a lot of stones ...maybe one day we will find the one he is hiding under !!!LOL Take cover !! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Oops, J4L upsetting the troops again? See if people read my posts properly they will maybe get where I'm coming from. Nobody is suggesting that any particular person is unscrupulous, especially you corkie, if I thought that I'd have said "hey Corkie, you are an unscrupulous LL" hehe My point, albeit I may have drawn it out a little in my post was DO YOUR INVENTORY PROPERLY ON 'CHECK OUT' AND THEN YOU WON'T NEED TO RECHECK IT A FEW DAYS LATER. THEN AUTHORISE THE TDS TO RETURN MONIES DUE TO THE TENANT, REMEMBERING THAT THIS MONEY ALWAYS HAS BEEN, AND ALWAYS WILL BE THEIRS UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. hanging on to it for a few days is just plain daft and only a power thing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I'd suggest doing the final property check on the last day of the tenancy with the tenant in attendance and do it thoroughly to avoid complications later down the line. If he then holds the keys until he gets the deposit back you could argue that possession of the property has not ended and charge additional rent. Personally at £6 for a new barrel lock I wouldn't get in a fuss and just change the lock if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Gpel Unless you have a pvc front door when barrels no are sometimes 1. very difficult to locate 2. cost £15-£30 3. you then need to get copies made (6-8 on an HMO) 4. Time to go to get lock and fit . 5.Then time wasted to sort out other t with "new" keys Total more like £100 in time effort etc Hmmm Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Agree that inventory should always be done on last day, and in full, where possible..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 GPEL has the idea, Like I said, do it properly and inform TDS to refund, I haven't suggested the T keeps the keys at all, just don't go back to the T 3 days later and say i'm stopping £50 cos the carpet needs cleaning when you could do it when you check them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 the Tenant who requires the return of their deposit for their next property now has to either go cap in hand to a friend or relative to borrow their next D If dep is in custodial then unlikely that T will see it b4 ten days anyway ...so better for T if LL has it in "cash" as more likely to see it quicker ...... How nasty cab and shelter were suggesting setting up such system whereby T would be inconvenienced by having to wait upto 10 days b4 dep returned ...guess they must be unscrupulous! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkie Posted November 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 To make things easy for myself, I do have a pvc door!!! Will do the full, very thorough check out inventory. Firm, but always fair at the back of my mind. I might be wrong, but I very much doubt if this T will agree to anything, let alone sign anything at the end. What happens then? Court? because that's where he'll take me. Did do an inventory at the start. There was a water tank leaking in the summer and have fitted new carpets and redecorated in august. Should I expect hardly any wear or tear on this. The problem I have is that damage/dilapidation is very subjective and this T never agrees to anything and has literally had me round to turn off a radiator!! Thanks again for advice and devil' s advocacy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Forget your tenant's strong arm tactics. When you do the check, note any concerns, take photos, put it in writing to the tenant your deductions (if any) and why and explain that you are prepared to justify your reasons to a small claims court if necessary. Refund any deposit portion not under dispute. At a corporate level, CAB has a jaundiced view of landlords that misrepresents reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 "The problem I have is that damage/dilapidation is very subjective " totally agree with you here and this is why the check out should be done whilst the T is present. Then you can agree or disagree on the action to take. If the T disagrees with your opinion then you say that you agree to disagree and let it go to arbitration. Take photos aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Let me play devils advocate and relay a few real examples: One property i have was checked over all appeared fairly good So i sent my guys in to deep clean as we do on most T changeovers On moving the sofa it was found that a piece of the laminate flooring had been clawed and chewed by the family dog so the T had "cut" the end of the laminate plank and dropped a new piece in to fill the 6" square hole...a 4 year old could have done a better job it was a disgraceful mess ! Next question was where had he got the replacement bit from as it matched the original floor ....that took us 10 minintes to find ...when we pulled the fridge freezer out we found where he had "cut" the new piece from ....!!!! To repair these 2 areas of flooring we had to pull up about two thirds of the laminate in order to relay over the damaged areas properly Next we took down the curtains to wash them and put them in the washing machine ...we switched the machine on to be greeted by a lound knocking and grating sound ....w/m was 6 mths old .......Engineers report was that bearings had gone, due to severe overloading and continued use ....the tenant was a keen horse rider and on the ocassions when i had visited prop with them in res, horse blankets were "around" so guess she was washing them in my machine.....machine so bad that had to buy a new one (still looked visibly brand new) bedroom 1 had been rearranged and after moving bed a bad iron burn was found on carpet. bedroom 2 also rearranged , after moving wardrobe corner of carpet found to be be badly chewed by dog In another house all looked well ...when my guys went in to clean it was end of summer and a cold day so they put heating on .....a very fragrant aroma (vanilla....god do i hate the smell of vanilla), began to get stronger and stonger .....on investigation a very large candle (6"base)had been burnt on the window sill in the lounge ..all the wax had melted and dripped onto the back of the radiator and built up on a large section of it.As it was summer the heating hadn't been used for some time until we put it on ......we had to remove rad and use a paint stripping heater blower to get it all off ...which took some time.... Another house ...back gate looked fine until you tried to open it and it fell on the floor .....had been kicked off and left balanced in place. Another one .....shower looked okay until you turned it on and water came from the box not the head ..(although agree this one could easily be picked up on normal check out ) More .....Air spa bath 12 air jets in bath base with chrome hats on each jet ...looked fine .....fill with water and turn on and 7 of them blew off ...as they had been snapped and just balance over air jets Even More ...Jacuzzi bath ...looked fine ...fill with water and turn on .....the most disgusting smelly mouldy sludge and slimy muck oused out of the jets ....took several hours to clean the system out .....T didn't do baths, just showers, so water had been stagnant in sytem for approx 12 months.. Yet another house ....moved a bedside to shampoo carpet to find a "puke burnt" patch of carpet Another house ........pulled string on a kitchen blind to find string came away in my hand ..it had snapped and T has just pushed ot back in hole ... Just a few of the "problems" that i have "missed" on check out ....which is why I NEVER GIVE DEPOSIT ON THE DAY !!!!!!!(Unless HMO room which can be checked thoroughly on the day ...but still dont give it on the day ....usually!) Can i justfy these ...yes i have a camera and witnesses if necessary and the original inventory..... Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugsy Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 I have to say, that I've never given a deposit back on checkout day and don't intend ever to start. I always reconcile within 5 working days and that's the best it's going to get. (I must add, most T's are thrilled with this) There are just too many things to check and examine and we'd be at it all day and I know if I did it any different, I'd be the one out of pocket. I don't concern myself with where my tenant will find the next £1000 quid or so for his next deposit as I assume if he's contracting himself to other people's assets worth at least a hundred K, then he should have a small buffer, at least for a few days anyway. P.S. You'd be amazed at the wear and tear (both acceptable and unacceptable), especially on brand new stuff, in 6months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Let me play devils advocate and relay a few real examples: One property i have was checked over all appeared fairly good So i sent my guys in to deep clean as we do on most T changeovers On moving the sofa it was found that a piece of the laminate flooring had been clawed and chewed by the family dog so the T had "cut" the end of the laminate plank and dropped a new piece in to fill the 6" square hole...a 4 year old could have done a better job it was a disgraceful mess ! Next question was where had he got the replacement bit from as it matched the original floor ....that took us 10 minintes to find ...when we pulled the fridge freezer out we found where he had "cut" the new piece from ....!!!! To repair these 2 areas of flooring we had to pull up about two thirds of the laminate in order to relay over the damaged areas properly Next we took down the curtains to wash them and put them in the washing machine ...we switched the machine on to be greeted by a lound knocking and grating sound ....w/m was 6 mths old .......Engineers report was that bearings had gone, due to severe overloading and continued use ....the tenant was a keen horse rider and on the ocassions when i had visited prop with them in res, horse blankets were "around" so guess she was washing them in my machine.....machine so bad that had to buy a new one (still looked visibly brand new) bedroom 1 had been rearranged and after moving bed a bad iron burn was found on carpet. bedroom 2 also rearranged , after moving wardrobe corner of carpet found to be be badly chewed by dog In another house all looked well ...when my guys went in to clean it was end of summer and a cold day so they put heating on .....a very fragrant aroma (vanilla....god do i hate the smell of vanilla), began to get stronger and stonger .....on investigation a very large candle (6"base)had been burnt on the window sill in the lounge ..all the wax had melted and dripped onto the back of the radiator and built up on a large section of it.As it was summer the heating hadn't been used for some time until we put it on ......we had to remove rad and use a paint stripping heater blower to get it all off ...which took some time.... Another house ...back gate looked fine until you tried to open it and it fell on the floor .....had been kicked off and left balanced in place. Another one .....shower looked okay until you turned it on and water came from the box not the head ..(although agree this one could easily be picked up on normal check out ) More .....Air spa bath 12 air jets in bath base with chrome hats on each jet ...looked fine .....fill with water and turn on and 7 of them blew off ...as they had been snapped and just balance over air jets Even More ...Jacuzzi bath ...looked fine ...fill with water and turn on .....the most disgusting smelly mouldy sludge and slimy muck oused out of the jets ....took several hours to clean the system out .....T didn't do baths, just showers, so water had been stagnant in sytem for approx 12 months.. Yet another house ....moved a bedside to shampoo carpet to find a "puke burnt" patch of carpet Another house ........pulled string on a kitchen blind to find string came away in my hand ..it had snapped and T has just pushed ot back in hole ... Just a few of the "problems" that i have "missed" on check out ....which is why I NEVER GIVE DEPOSIT ON THE DAY !!!!!!!(Unless HMO room which can be checked thoroughly on the day ...but still dont give it on the day ....usually!) Can i justfy these ...yes i have a camera and witnesses if necessary and the original inventory..... Simon I think MOST of these could have been found on check out! If you book 'your boys' to deep clean on the final check out day the Tenant would still be present and could 'excuse' themselves (if possible) or admit to it, then there wouldn't be any need to go to arbitration. I'm sure ANY T would be prepared to stay around for a few hours if it meant saving themselves a few hundred £'s. Tell you what you wouldn't want me as a Tenant cos I'd INSIST on the inventory being done when i'm leaving!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Yep, no problem with T being present ...as long as he is ready for us to arrive at 9am and hang around most of the day , then produce all utility bills and CT stamped "paid" then at the end of the day we will agree fig then as stated previously will pay back in time frame allocated .....which i believe is now 10 days .... S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 I'm sure any T who looks after his property and feels that he should get a full deposit return would be prepared to stay for the duration of your check out. If he doesn't then more fool him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Must add at this point that i return 99.9% OF DEPOSTS IN FULL .... Personally it is very rare that i have a dissagreement with a T as i have built a good working relationship with them during course of tenancy .. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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