fisherman Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 As well as getting a CP12 and the gas boiler serviced, do I have to obtain an electrical certificate for an electrirc cooker and hob? These are the only applicances in the property. Thanks Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 In a word "No" but if older than 12 months you may want to get a PAT check done on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ295 Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 pat testing is for portable appliances, i would consider hob and electric cooker to be fixed items, therefore no testing required russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Russ no testing is required for any electrical item whether fixed or otherwise. However, a PAT check can still be done on the cooker whether you can roll it around on wheels or "wired-in". The point is, if you want peace of mind, doing the check is the best way to identify hidden faults, shows due diligence and good practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ295 Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Russ no testing is required for any electrical item whether fixed or otherwise. However, a PAT check can still be done on the cooker whether you can roll it around on wheels or "wired-in". The point is, if you want peace of mind, doing the check is the best way to identify hidden faults, shows due diligence and good practice. i understand any item can be PAT tested, but as i understand it, he is talking about a built in cooker and hob, personally i wouldnt PAT test these as they are fixed equipment and should be protected by the correct circuit breaker/fuse /rcd at the consumer unit, when i fit ovens/hobs/cookers, i do an earth fault loop test to verify that disconnection times for fixed equipment under fault condition will be met, if the readings are to high it dont get conected, full stop, and to make sure the setup is to manufacturers instructions. prob i find is people go to curry etc and buy a new cooker or whatever and call me to fit them, they have bought a 4.2kw oven and the old one has a 13a plug fitted, "well the other one worked ok", "yes but this one wont", floor boards up, walls chased the works. usually get shown the door at that point. now the diy'er from down the pub say it will be fine and connects it, now the applaince is safe, its been tested at the factory, but the circuit that supplies the cooker is melting and busts into flames whilst the sunday dinner is on. but the appliance is still safe, it was tested at the factory! my view is that an applaince that is portable has to be safe to be plugged into any plug socket, regardless of the circuit characteristics, rewirable fuse/mcb/rcd/ no rcd etc. anything that is hard wired and wont be moved about, should be protected by having the correct circuit in place to protect against short circuit/overload and earth fault current. the following is from earth check limited who specialise in pat testing, What electrical equipment needs to be tested? The regulations cover all items of inservice electrical equipment, this includes all movable items connected to the mains supply by 13A BS1363 plugs, BS EN60309-2 industrial plugs, or hard wired via a fused connection unit. In addition to being responsible for the safety of their own portable appliances, companies are are also responsible for the safety of electrical equipment brought on site by employees and contractors. NOTE: Portable Appliance Testing covers 230v/110v and some 415v appliances. All of these have a plug. Items that are isolated or are spured ie hand dryers, wall heaters, industrial machinery would be covered under a periodic inspection and test to BS7671 and should not be tested as they are FIXED items not PORTABLE. you dont need (legally) any cert for the electrics, but if your concerned you would be better having a periodic inpection (pir) done to identify any non conformities/faults in your wiring system. russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Agreed Russ, it just depends on how cooker is connected. I didn't read it as built-in. My cooker and hob are integral but plugged straight in to the ring mains and no special fuse rating. I queried this and advised it was OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ295 Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Agreed Russ, it just depends on how cooker is connected. I didn't read it as built-in. My cooker and hob are integral but plugged straight in to the ring mains and no special fuse rating. I queried this and advised it was OK. i hope its a gas hob not an electric hob gpel ring final russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red40 Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 You would need to establish that the property isn't a HMO before saying nothing is required with regards the fixed electrical installtion an testing. Regulations were in place last year for any type of HMO other than properties consisting entirely of self contained flats. However the management regualtions for properties consisting entirely of self contained flats came into force on the 1st October 2007 and now also require these types of HMO's to have the fixed electrical installtion tested and inspected at intervals not greater than five years. If the OP house isn't a HMO then you only have a duty of care to your tenant/s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 I would agree, You still have a 'duty of care' regardless of whether it's mandatory or not, we always suggest that ANYTHING electrical is tested before a new T moves in but it really is down to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ295 Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I would agree, You still have a 'duty of care' regardless of whether it's mandatory or not, we always suggest that ANYTHING electrical is tested before a new T moves in but it really is down to you. imo, the duty of care would be to make sure the circuit feeding the electric hob/cooker (remember the only protective device for this would/should be at the cu) is upto bs7671 standard and in accordance with manufacturers recomendations. not pat testing an appliance thats attached to some wires in the wall that hasnt been checked. if the cooker develops a fault (an earth fault being the most dangerous) that little rcd/mcb in the cu that should be there will trip out before you could say "pat testing" just to clear, an oven is a cooker without a hob, a hob is a hob, a cooker is an oven and hob in one, he said appliances so i took it as more than one. some single ovens come with the instructions not to protect with a 13a fuse, but give little other info, its up to the person installing it to decide, usually a 16a radial direct from the cu with a 20a dp switch for isolation is the correct way, check for earth continuity on the metal bit of the oven and thats it. all ovens/hobs/cookers come with something along the lines of "this appliance must be connected to earth in compliance with electrical system saftey regulations" pat testing it wont tell you this! senario time 1. you pat test an oven, passes, you fit a 3 pin plug and of you go, your installation has no earth (there are still lots out there, more than you think!) is it safe, is it hell! you dont pat test your oven but connect it to the correct tested circuit, is it safe? yes. 2. you have an iron that has an earth fault and keeps tripping the rcd on the downstairs ring, protection is in place and is doing its job, now you take the iron and plug it in the upstairs ring thats not on the rcd and it works fine, but there is parts of the iron that are now live and open to touch, or the irons plug has been wired wrong and there is a L/N fault, resulting in a 30a fuse protecting it at the cu, that fuse will hold 45-50a for about an hour before it burns, in that time your iron cables have melted and caught fire! thats why pat testing is necessary, your fixed items should be protected by the circuit that supplies them, unless you take the oven upstairs to make a midnight feast i have forgot how many ovens i have removed and replaced that have "been on fire", "exploded", "went with a bang" and they have always been connected to an unsatisfactory installation. wrong fuse size, no fuse on occasions! resulting with something inside the oven "breaking" the current (thats where the explosion sound comes from). pat testing imo is for hairdryers and the like, proper testing is for fixed applainces (i think the name gives it away) russ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman Posted October 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 WOW. Thank you for all the replies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 A Basic Physics Lesson for any interested party !!!! Maybe worth mentioning that "plugs" have a "max" rating of 13amps, that is the current the fuse will allow thru it before it blows ...theoretically....the reality is that it will carry a bit for for a short time before it blows ) The appliances which draw "large" amounts of current will generally have either "heating elements", "motors/pumps" or both, in them,...... ie portable heaters/kettles/wash mach/ovens/electric hobs/hair dryers etc Now if you look on the back or bottom of these appliances there will be a power rating either in Watts(W) or Kilowatts(KW 1KW=1000watts) To give you some indication of current drawn by an appliance a very simple formula is used Power(Watts) / Volts(V)=Amp(CurrentI) So a 1000 watt(1KW) kettle draws 1000/240=4amps(approx) a 2 bar fire (do they still exist !) is usually 1KW/bar so 2000w when both bars are on so will draw 8A So when you buy a new oven if it is suitable to be plugged into a socket then it will have a "sealed" plug on it indicating that you can use a socket ... If however it doesn't have a plug, the first thing i would look at is the power rating on the "plate" and if it is more than 3000w(3KW) i would not even be thinking of plugging it into a socket (this applies to ALL APPLIANCES). As current passes thru a conductor it has a heating effect when too much current is drawn too much heat is present ...we get a fire or the cable melting (just like a fuse) if you put large currents thru large industrial cables then when they overload they do something interesting ..they actually straighten out ...very quickly like a whip ...a bit like flinging your arm straight ..you do not want to be in the way when this happens .... Another simple bit of maths for working out electricity costs which , lot of people dont seem to understand, is that electricity is measured in units called Kilowatt Hours ....so a 2 kw heater left on for an hour will use 2 unit (1x unit =10-15p ) so it will cost around 30pence an hour to run. A 100w light bulb will take ten hours to use a KW or 15p worth so 1.5p per hour ... Earthing of appliances and circuits is INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT as this is what will protect you from electric shocks and fires, nowadays RCDs (residual current device) and MCBs(micro circuit breakers) are fitted to upto date installations..tripswitches in the consumer unit.. High Voltage will not do you a lot of harm ......it is not a pleasant experience but the effects only really last whilst you are connected !!!..... try grapping an HT lead in your car(approx8-10000volts) or an electric cattle fence(2000-10000volts max permitted by law) not nice but you will certainly live to tell the tale (probably best NOT to try this if you have a pace maker tho!!!!!) IT IS THE VOLTS THAT WILL GIVE YOU THE JOLTS BUT THE CURRENT THAT WILL KILL YOU...... Hope i havent insulted anyone's intelligence with this lot but sometimes it can be very useful... Off the point somewhat but just thought this might be useful to someone ...somewhere.... Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ295 Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 ohms law simon. did you also know that a double socket outlet is only rated at 13a aswell, so no pluging the washer and dryer or kettle and toaster into one! all calcs have to use 230v now as thats what the power supply co are working to so your amps go up a bit more. russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 I will consider myself corrected ! Thank ye kindly ! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 did you also know that a double socket outlet is only rated at 13a aswell, so no pluging the washer and dryer or kettle and toaster into one! No wasn't aware of this one .......job to find a house where this doesn't happen tho ...yours maybe Russ ....!!!LOL Overkill though ?? if they on a ring not a spur ?? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ295 Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 did you also know that a double socket outlet is only rated at 13a aswell, so no pluging the washer and dryer or kettle and toaster into one! No wasn't aware of this one .......job to find a house where this doesn't happen tho ...yours maybe Russ ....!!!LOL Overkill though ?? if they on a ring not a spur ?? Simon either, the fitting its self is rated at 13a, single or double, for a washer dryer etc you should have single socket for each one, if its a spur in 2.5mm t/e the cable is rated at about 17 amps, depending on installation methods, if you then plug washer/dryer and there both pulling 10amps your over the "design" limit, ie, 32amps mcb at cu, 20a being drawn leaves the cable as the weak point, potential problems and bad design. my house i have them both plugged into a dual adaptor russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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