krach Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 hello, a former tenant of mine has damaged my carpet, burning of about 20 x 20 inches in it. of course, i've refused to refund the doposit he has paid at the beginning of the tenancy. replacement of the carpet will cost even more than the deposit he has paid initially. i've discussed this with him already several times on the phone, he obviously wants the money back. my problem is that the carpet is not mentioned on the inventory in the tenancy agreement at all. he (or his lawyer?) has now sent me a nice letter. his point is that the carpet is not part of the tenancy agreement or inventory. therefore he cannot damage anything that is non existent (according to agreement). what can i legally do now ?? do i have to replace the carpet on my costs and send him the deposit back ? that can't be right ? thanks a lot steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Hi Steve To catch a XXXX sometimes you need to become a XXXX (for a while !) Have you got any witnesses to confirm presence of the carpet? and condition ?maybe photographs ? a receipt for when it was purchased ? or fitted ? cos they will alll help ! Has he admitted to the damage - any text messages - letters - or witnesses to verbal admission or anyone who can confirm that the damage was "committed" whilst he was in possession of the property ? Either way inventory or not he has damaged your "possesion" or "property" Let me explain my thoughts - If he had come outside and kicked your car door in that would not be on the inventory either but still exists and is still damaged - now are you going to just accept that ? ........Thought not ! So although it is not on the inventory it does not mean he is not liable - it just means that "theoretically" you should not deduct it from his bond ...... NO PROBLEM ! Inform him (and his solicitor!) that after careful consideration you will return the bond in full within the mandatory 28 day period ; noting that the carpet is badly damaged but due to negligence on your part was accidentally omitted from the inventory and as such you will not be deducting the cost from the bond. As this was your fault you will comply with the law. However all parties are aware there is/was a carpet at the property which is/was 1....4 years old and will cost £... to replace. This can be verified by 1,2,3,4,etc witnesses whom will sign sworn statements to this effect if necessary. As the property has been dameged whilst in possession of Mr x your will be including an invoice(wih this letter) for £.... to cover damage(the T has a "duty of care" over all of the prop and contents regardless of inventory!) - if cleared funds to cover the invoice have not been received within 7/10/14/21/28 days then you will be employing the services of a debt collector namely "xyz " (you must name the DC -try "Thornbury collections.co.uk" they are the biz!) - the debt collector fee of 15 % will be payable by the x Tenant along with any further costs incurred by DC in order to collect the outstanding monies. As a reasonable person with a sense of fair play and in order to resolve this situation amicably you are prepared to keep the bond along with a payment of £xxx (the balance) if they are agreeable to this. If so "please confirm that this is your intention in writing and enclose this written confirmation with payment" If you require the bond returned and then send payment seperately for damage please confirm this in writing. OR something along these line - you get the gist ? It should be noted that if ths does get to court that even if this carpet was brand new when the T moved in; you will not be allowed to claim the full value of a new carpet as an element of wear and tear which will depreciate the value over the years - you wil probably find at around 20% per annum - meaning that if the carpet is more than 5 years old the court will deem it pretty much worthless and you will get basically - nothing! This said "to catch........................" (see first line !) I would try it on( as he is) as he probably will not Know this, and you really have nothing to lose as you dont have to go all the way to court ... and the DC will be making the bill bigger and bigger all the time ! he will pobably pay immediately as most people have a very strange turn when threatened with a DC !!! Speak to Pete or Tom at "thornbury" who will advise you further ! Hope this helps ! let us know how you get on Simon PS i am no legal expert, but like you - dont like having the Pxxx taken out of me ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Simon this is so wrong!!!! Your Debt Collector' stance on everything 'really' worries me!!! It's not always the way to go. Your signature says you are a 'professional landlord'. Sending in the debt collectors EVERY time certainly not professional in my eyes!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 Please explain why ? Is going to court as the first and last action professional? ............not in my eyes! It should be remembered that this is used as a motivator to resolve issues with people who refuse to be reasonable - such as above and only after all sensible disscussion has ceased(as above) and that a DC will try to negotiate b4 doing actually doing the same ie Court ! The interesting thing is that i have only actually had to instruct a DC TWICE - On most occasions the very threat is enough -a means to an end and ...........................it works ..................now where is the problem !????????????? So getting a fast favorable result with no time or money wasted ....professional and efficient.....!!!!!!! Debt Collectors are specialists in he field of collecting debt amd will resort to "court action" as a last result -- when you get your first/next problem -just try it b4 knocking it ! Also, in my limited time on this planet of ours, i have mades several observations ; one of these is that a lot of people threaten court action, but probably less than 1% ever actually follow thru - thus meaning that the perpetrator is highly unlikely to repond to the threat until the summons arrives on the mat - some will then hurriedly backdate a cheque and send it off others will completely ignore it - then when they get to court they know that they can agrgue and plead poverty and almost certainly end up paying just £10 a week etc once this is in place - all you can do is take them back to court to regain your £10 a week -This is expensive, time consuming, stressful and a complete waste of time in my opinion ( I have never done it - so will stand corrected if i am wrong!) Now with DC the debt is increasing all the time - you have a pro doing the work (at T expense) Time becomes a sensitive issue to T because of mounting costs and if you set it up properly you can remove all costs as incentive to not only get debt cleared quickly but aslo as bargaining tool to regain possession - as i have done for many years very successfully !! as previously pointed out i have only ever got to DC collector staus twice (and one of those was actually not a tenant) If you are not comfortable with this, then you can of course, carry on using the "conventional system" In the meantime what would be your way of handling the above situation with the carpet ? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 I'll tell you why I disagree, Steve has gotten a damaged carpet, agreed, it wasn't listed in the inventory, end of. . . . . He needs to put this down to a bad experience and not forget to enter carpets on his next inventory. It also depends on how long the carpet has been down, I think i've read somewhere that the courts will only 'give you' any compensation as a Landlord if the carpet is under 5 years old. Even if it is, you still have to prove what you paid for it initially and then take off 'fair wear & tear'. Steve, how big is the room?? Let's say it's a living room carpet of about 15' x 13' how much will a new carpet cost to buy and fit for another tenant. Surely a cheap carpet would suffice and I can't see that costing more than about £300. What's the deposit your holding back?? Got to be about £500?? Why not ask the tenant to split the difference with you steve, and bite the bullet. THIS, Steve is the correct way to go about this situation and not to discharge the debt collecters straight away. My own personal opinion of course but let's be fair here I think it's more of a compromise than just blaming the Tenanat all the time for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laverda Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 Why compromse if the tenant damaged the carpet then they should pay for its replacement simple. if you compromise where will this end you will be paying for tenants damage over and over each time they damage something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 you did read somewhere about 5 years -- in my post !!!above... I also recommended full return of deposit - then a seperate bill for damage - as it was not on the inventory ! (lesson to be learnt) Professioanl? ethical? Moral? i'm happy with that ..... Now as i pointed out "It should be remembered that this is used as a motivator to resolve issues with people who refuse to be reasonable " as the T stance is " the carpet doesn't exist " i feel this is not "playing fair " and this kinda terminates " reasonable discussion for a minute" !! So sledgehammer to crack nut - short sharp shock treatment - to re-open sensible discussion- in order to agree a suitable fig as pointed out in my first post! if they dont want to be reasonable then fine - it is going to cost them ! their choice!......It is not discharged to debt collectors straight away ( in my case very rarely ! unless they choose to not react...) "Surely a cheap carpet would suffice and I can't see that costing more than about £300" Why should he !? Next time your car is nicked surely if the insurance paid out enough for a clapped out old banger this will also suffice !? Like for like with adjustment for wear and tear is fair; whatever that cost may be .... But this at present is a long way from " therefore he cannot damage anything that is non existent " this as i have pointed out is excellent motivation to come to a fast mutually agreed conclusion of the issue ...Try it!!!!!!! Tenant has made position clear on fair resolution of problem by not even acknowledging existance of carpet(split the difference etc) - so now what is the next step in your procedure to resolve the problem?? Dont know how much detail your inventory goes into : Like does it say that there is glass in the windows are there copper pipes connecting all radiators pipes connecting sinks wc basins etc are there wires cables connecting all electrical switches sockets etc is the electrical consumer unit listed are door handles and hinges kitchen waste pipes are the roof, drain pipes and gutters included the taps on the sinks and bath window cill int & external skirting boards Banisters Newel posts Cos when i move into one of your properties and remove or damage this lot and tell you they werent on the inventory i know we will still be friends because you will "bite the bullet and put it down to a bad experience and put them on the next inventory"! I think you will find most of us considering it more like "being shafted up the aXXX" There is clearly no substitute for experience !! If you want a door hanging, get a carpenter; if you want a joint of meat, buy it from a butcher; if you need tiles, use a tiler; and if you you have a debt problem, use a debt collector - seems pretty simple to me - the bonus is that the threat of one seems to invariably sort the problem out immediately ....... the height of professionalism ??.......... comments welcomed (sensible ones !) Just 4 a Laugh Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 interesting reading. Lets see what steve does with these comments and see what the outcome is. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 Hi J4L PART ONE "Steve has gotten a damaged carpet, agreed, it wasn't listed in the inventory, end of. . . . . He needs to put this down to a bad experience and not forget to enter carpets on his next inventory. Surely a cheap carpet would suffice and I can't see that costing more than about £300 Why not ask the tenant to split the difference with you steve, and bite the bullet......... THIS, Steve is the correct way to go about this situation.........." I have approx 100 tenants - now if they all incurred damage of this nature i would be looking at a £30,000 bill- if you were my Letting Agent and you told me to take it on the CHIN and lay the above response to the situation on me; I think it could cross my mind, as a Landlord, that an overwelming urge to CHIN YOU maybe irrepressible. PART TWO What is the next step in your recovery procedure in order to ensure that the money is recovered after the request to split the bill (which is fair!) is rejected as it has been (his point is that the carpet is not part of the tenancy agreement or inventory. therefore he cannot damage anything that is non existent) ??? THIS IS THE QUESTION THAT STEVE NEEDS ANSWERING ! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I suspect that a fair and reasonable judge would look at all the merits of the case and decide whether or not, on the balance of probability, is it likely that the carpet existed. If not, then why didn't the tenant comment in the first place. What type of surface was the carpet laid on, do you have carpet receipts etc. My response to the tenant would be that their argument that the carpet didn't exist is unreasonable and not accepted by you. Consequently, you will be making deductions iaw industry guidelines, which has been dealt with earlier considering factors such as age/condition/cost of carpet/consequence of damage etc. If this isn't accepted then it is their perogative to pursue legal action but ask tenant to please refrain from sending further solicitor's letters as they will not receive a response. If I read comments correctly, in no way refund deposit and subsequently claim again later. If a reasonable cost is put on the damage that exceeds the deposit, keep the deposit and invoice for the remainer, otherwise, on basis that the deductions are less than the deposit, just deduct a reasonable amount from the deposit and refund the rest - avoid complication. On point of carpet value there is no set time limit. It depends on the quality of the carpet. For example, manufacturer states carpet should be good for 10 years wear & tear and cost £1000. Therefore total value of carpet depreciates by £100 per year. Carpet damaged after 5 years, the total value of carpet for claim would be £500 if needed replacing eg completely trashed. Remember though, the deposit isn't a substitute for an insurance policy. A burn of 20"by20" on a 5yr old carpet, depending on location could possibly be repaired with spare carpet or covered with a rug etc. A judge might find that though unsightly and subject to the impact of the damage, the carpet is still serviceable and rule £50 is reasonable for the cost of a mat to cover the problem. Otherwise might just deduct an element for loss of value of carpet relative to use of it, age and value at that age and other related factors. Subject to the factors of the case, you are unlikely to justify a £500 deduction for damage to a 5 year old carpet originally costing £1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 The other way as Gpel says is much simpler - just keep the deposit - but if T gets legal with it -you could get caught up with the legalities of technicalities of using the deposit ! If you do the above then you will prob get written confirmation that T will allow this - then you have got your AXXX covered !! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I'm with Simon on this one. The tenant has already started playing dirty so is likely to be difficult, if you give him an inch he'll take a mile. The buy to let margins are tight, to let tenants off all the time could easily turn a small profit into a loss, and when you have 30 properties like Simon, it can make a big difference. I have admit, i would probably just replace the carpet at my own expense as the conflict is not worth it for a few hundred pounds, my properties have high yields and I don't have many so can afford to do this, (never had to so far). HOWEVER, the way he has acted would definately make me determined to take all his deposit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 oh dear this is getting daft now, so i'll not comment further. Like I said i'd like to wait and see what the outcome is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 J4L "Daft" is right ! But what do you do with an idiot who claims that a carpet doesn't exist and hence is not prepared to negotiate over cost ? Nothing ? and lose your shirt? This is a very real situation which a lot of LL face on a daily basis - so a real "solution" is required ..................... As he wont split the difference what now...............? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odecar Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 If claims carpet doesn't exist then charge him for leaving a burnt carpet on your premises and having to pay to have it hygenically removed. Its either yours or his in which case its gotta be removed. I'm sure its possible to find someone who has "Removed and disposed of the carpet". Solicitor can't have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Hi Odecar Good option ! I believe that by the time someone has been paid to remove all of the furniture from the room to facilitate the "uplift" of the carpet, then uplifted and removed from the property, then hired a van (wont fit in my lttle car!), then paid to dispose of it, then put all of the furniture back This bill could be as much as the cost of the carpet !!! Not really my style this one - but if needs must, be a XXXX to catch a XXXX ............... J4L is not going to like this one though...............! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 J4L is not going to like this one though...............! haha, I love it!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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