Simon Dewsberry Posted May 26, 2007 Report Share Posted May 26, 2007 Hi All In the light of government concerns and new legislation - we have seen the mortgage industry cleaned up and rightly so - all FA's now must be quailfied and document almost every conversation they have with clients we have seen the Bank of England step in wit interest rates to control the whole market we have HMO regs comming out of our ears we also now have the TDS in place to regulate bonds for LL and T's we look forward to the introduction of HIPS to really mess things up and give away even more money we have corgi gas tickets to pay for every year to ensure the safety of people Ll must now be licensed personally for HMO's I think this is all very commendable but there is a gapping hole here - the people who manage or run most of the BTL portfolios/property sales are Letting or Estate agents who operate with little or no regulation, no qualifications and no "body" overseeing their activities (that i am aware of - I stand to be corrected ) Is it not time that this was looked at - to protect the interests of both LL and Tenant even in some cases the lender. I am amazed that to open a letting agency - I dont even need a premisis or an address just a mobile phone no will do !!!!!!!! Although most people would have the good sense not to hand over the control of several hundred thousand pounds worth of asset to someone operating at this level. Surely some form of regulation/ qulification/auditing program should be implemented would you trust a 16 year old brain surgeon ?? What do we think guys ? Simon Mark- dont take this one personally ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted May 27, 2007 Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 Well Rodent can I ask what qualifications you have and who regulates you?? 'we have corgi gas tickets to pay for every year to ensure the safety of people' And absolutely correct this is. Why should a Tenant rely on a LL to make sure the property is safe to live in when we all know very well that many LL's cut corners to save/make money, sometimes to the detriment of inhabitants and occasionally causing fatalities. 'Although most people would have the good sense not to hand over the control of several hundred thousand pounds worth of asset to someone operating at this level.' I would have thought that most people with good sense would cover 'most eventualities' with insurance!!!!!! A high percentage of BTL are self managed actually, by people with only their experience to call on. TDS is a good move actually I think for two reasons, 1) because it weans out the rogue LL's who used to use the 'tenants' deposit (and it DOES belong to the tenant) as extra 'pocket money' Some had absolutely no intention of EVER returning it and make up a whole load of excuses as to why they are not returning it. Most Tenants could not afford to or don't have the knowledge to take legal action to get it returned, and these LL's KNOW this. 2) Many Many LL's use their BTL properties to earn extra 'illegal tax free' income. One of the reasons that people are against TDS is because by depositing tenants money in a 'government' scheme these LL's now realise that the government now have access to their affairs and are worried about the IR catching up with them. I have always paid my taxes, never signed on and never claimed anything from the government, why should others get away with it. Suffice to say, if all these people who make dodgy claims, withhold their taxes etc didn't do this then this country would be in a much richer state. This would be reflected then in the reduction of interest rates don't you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted May 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 Please point me in the direction of any insurance company that will underwrite the actions of an inexperienced, incompetent agent with no proper contact details who has done a flit with the rent money !! As for my qualifications - yes lots! but the point is i am only looking after my affairs NOT SOMEONE ELSES! How does the LL have any measure of confidence or recourse - at present - he doesn't! Unfortunately this is true of most trades and professions even with regulation - plumbers, builders, electricians, mechanics, even doctors banks dentists etc are all guilty of huge acts of incompetence - I laugh at 18and 19 year old finacial advisors whose Knowledge is rudimentary to say the least! these are all regulated and need formal training in order to practice and are dealing with far lower amounts of risk and financial sums! TDS has its heart in the right place - but as a british citizen i have spent my life believing that you are " innocent until proven guilty" and so i feel that as the vast majority of both LL and agents are " good and reponsible" that they should not have to be subject to extra work and hassle and be tarred withthe same brush as the "rogues" we all have within us the ability to commit offences such as sexual offences - onky when an offence is commited and we are found guilty should we be made to join the sexual register and be punished accordingly BUT NOT BEFORE WE HAVE EVEN COMMITTED AN OFFENCE A bankrupt cannot be a director - you may drive until you are banned - you may keep your freedom until you transgress ! But if you are a LL you will be made to adhere to uneccessary rules designed for rogues from th outset now! People (generally) will always "fiddle" to some degree as this is human nature and tyhe TDS will not stop this from happening. The initial point i was trying to make is similar to the above - most agents are reputable but as a newbie green LL trying to get a portfolio up and running with the help of an agent - the choice of agent is extremely important to protect both LL and T -at present there is no system in place to "rate" an agent's abilities or give any kind of recourse ( other than ALMA ALA etc) When you make a financial investment in equities shares etc and have a portfolio manager - generally he is well qualified and works under a tight regime (fsa etc) Most BTL investments of what £200k plus are far greater than the couple of grand joe public will invest in shares, unit trusts, pension funds etc Now if that person wants to manage his own portfolio then that is his perogative - but on much bigger investments ie prop ports we have no such regulation other than blind faith from the LL and BS from the agent !! If your portfolio was worth £5mil would you hand it over to any other than a proven expert ?? NO? Guess what nor me ! Would you give a £1000 for one of the boys in the pub to invest and manage ?? Nope nor me ! So why do people hand over massive investmests to anyone other than an proven expert with well documented experience to look after ? Beats me. My cynical view ! To wrap this up " I would sooner hand over the servicing of my wife than the managment of my portfolio" but again only if i thought someone could do a better job than me - guess that one stays with me as well then !! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderer1825 Posted May 27, 2007 Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 In my view all Letting Agents should have Public Liability and Professional Indemnity Insurance in place. I wonder how many actually have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted May 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 Hi Wanderer The word "Professional" says it all as it implies qualification and experience in order to quailfy to be "insurable" !!! Let us not tar all agents with the same brush as there are a lot of good ones out there - we just need some form of proper recognition for them so they may stand apart from the rogues ! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted May 27, 2007 Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 Wow!!! Simon!!! Calm down!! haha well i'll try and answer as much of this as I feel able then I guess. 'Please point me in the direction of any insurance company that will underwrite the actions of an inexperienced, incompetent agent with no proper contact details who has done a flit with the rent money !!' I 'sorta' take your point on a bit of this but YOU have to make the decisions by meeting them and checking out their facilities. Generally you get a 'feel' for someone and their credibility within 30 seconds of meeting them. If you don't even try to then you'll never know will you. Once you feel happy that they will do a good job for you THEN you can introduce systems where you get 'flagged' if something doesn't appear correct to you. As for flitting with the money? Well personally if I didn't receive only ONE MONTHS RENT from an agent i'd be on their case straight away. That's your decision on how you manage the agent! 'As for my qualifications - yes lots! but the point is i am only looking after my affairs NOT SOMEONE ELSES! How does the LL have any measure of confidence or recourse - at present - he doesn't!' So you DON'T have any formal qualifications then? Yes you're looking after YOUR affairs, but so could I. Just because a person doesn't 'appear' to have any 'formal' qualifications doesn't mean that they can't manage a portfolio. It makes me laugh that it's always the 'self-managing' agents that harp on about 'regulating the agents' well I have a question for you, should the government ever decide that yes, agents should be regulated and 'watched over' 'have some sort of formal qualification' what makes you think that as a Landlord you will be excluded from these rules?? I can't imagine ANY body making rules for agents without including LL's in their policy/Act. When I get a Tenant to sign an AST is it any different to the one that you WRITE? Is it 'governed' or 'looked at' more or less favourably in your case by a county court?? I think not!!! We will ALL come under the same rules methinks. Law is Law. So when LL's say this to me I give them the above answer. You know it makes sense. As far as handing over millions of pounds wiorth of investments?? I think not!! 'But if you are a LL you will be made to adhere to uneccessary rules designed for rogues from th outset now!' Sorry I disagree with this, I personally think it's the governments way of keeping a closer eye on tax evaders rather than anything else. You can however continue to hang onto the Tenants deposit if you like by joining an insurance based scheme. This is again, your choice, and you as a LL DO HAVE CHOICES! 'Most BTL investments of what £200k plus are far greater than the couple of grand joe public will invest in shares, unit trusts, pension funds etc Now if that person wants to manage his own portfolio then that is his perogative - but on much bigger investments ie prop ports we have no such regulation other than blind faith from the LL and BS from the agent !! If your portfolio was worth £5mil would you hand it over to any other than a proven expert ?? NO? Guess what nor me !' Firstly most BTL investments are nowhere near 200k, in fact they are probably around the same as the 'couple of grand' joe public invests in shares etc. You may have a property 'worth' 200k but your investment is only as big as the deposit you put down as far as I can see. And I agree that if that person wants to self manage, yes it's their prerogative. If there are BIGGER investments then you just need to dip your toe in the water first to find out. And the BS from the agent comment, well i'll reserve judgement on that one and not take it personally as you haven't met me so you couldn't possibly be talking about me!! HAHA (unless you've met the ex that is!!!) To summarise, yes some Landlords and agents are rogues, yes, innocent until proven guilty as you said, but surely you HAVE to agree that you don't liked being tarred with a particular brush, nor do these unregulated Letting Agents that are, just as you, trying to make a living. And as far as servicing of your Mrs? I'm guessing you are a bit of a tiger in the bedroom according to your comment. Well done you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted May 27, 2007 Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 The word "Professional" says it all as it implies qualification and experience in order to quailfy to be "insurable" !!! Me again sorry but this just popped up as I was writing the last post of 'war & peace' Can I correct you Simon on this actually. Professional - Collins English Dictionary gives the meaning as such, "working in a profession; taking part in an activity, such as sport or music for money; very competent" No mention here of qualifications by the way. Yes I'll give you that it does say 'very competent' but 'very competent' doesn't say experience. Thus it doesn't matter what a word implies or is taken as (in this case) it's surely what it MEANS! And let's not tar all LL's with the same brush either, I know I certainly don't. But if you want agents regulated you gotta expect some sort of regulation for LL's aswell i'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted May 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 An experienced LL may be in a position to "vet " an agent by asking a lot of questions and having the knowledge and experience to ascertain whether the agent is possibly up to the job - but a newbie is not afforded this luxury - just blind faith - not knowing the facts! The point i am trying to make here - which seems too have been missed - is the LL - LA relationship and reponsibilites to the LL not the whole concept of letting - which is getting heavily regulated on its own. In order to "manage" the investment affairs of another one should be able to demonstrate their ability effectively and clearly - i guess membership of ARLA etc is a big step towards this. If one is managing ones own affairs one only needs confidence in ones own ability as one is only answerable to oneself. Any person theoretically "could" manage the affairs of others - and this is my beef - because their is no regulation it is a huge unregulated gamble for a newbie LL to get involved in. Yes we all need to make a living but as an employer i interview somebody for their ability to do a job - this is largely based, if not solely based on their qualifcations and experience to do a particular job - If i wish to employ a LA to ascertain their abilities is very difficult especially if they do not have any of the above -and no physical presence. Min BTL is around What ? £100k Prob closer to the £200K i suggested Though dep average 15% so £15k to £30k dep which is , as you pointed out, controling a much larger asset - which the LL is fully responsible for ! Now i would wager that joe publics average share purchase or even holding will be considerably less than this - so the point i made about managing a fairly large "investment" i believe to be very valid. Prop regulated Mortgage Broker/agent regulated Lender qualified surveyor qualified solicitor qualified gas eng (corgi) soon hips/energy rating tds hmo--licensed manager -you can bet your arse this will apply to ALL Props in the not to distant future ast's and then LA no regulaton whatsover! If they are acting on behalf of other people - giving advice etc then yes they should be regulated and held accountable - does this apply to a LL ?no as he is advising himself only. JUst the same as a financial advisor - vs - self investor ! AST - no arguement over who gets it signed - as long as it is good one (but this point is irrelevent to this discussion! "Handing over millions of pounds worth of investments"? NO -it is the management of ( in the same way a unit trust manager does /regulated!)so very much YES! I agree with you that LL should also be regulated - they should be fit for the purpose and licensed as per HMO terms(have good record, finance in place etc) ...... and this will come ! LA should, in my opinion be made to do a course with an exam leading to a formal qualification to make sure they are in a position to advise and competently manage other peoples pension funds and income providers! I recently had one of my properties "valued" by an 18 yr old employee of an estate agent - you got it - his fig was a very bad guess! So yes the same applies to estate agents ! These posts are getting far to long !!! Simon Very Competent- surely to be taken as "able" whicj surely can only be shown through proof - past result ie experience or maybe documented proof of at least knowledge ie qualification !! This is getting pedantic now !!!! All good fun though - love a bit of banter !! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted May 27, 2007 Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 I would love to go for a beer with you simon and try and change your mind on a few issues. If i'm not mistaken we probably already have a few years ago at a boxing 'do'. But saying that it could have been any one of the many pine suppliers in Cardff. I don't think I got his name fully. How's this for a short post lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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