Received a bill from Council for repair to boiler

[axil23]

I just got the bill thru from the council for this. They want £250 now for some reason. I am sure the earlier bill was for much more.

Anyway there is no way that I am gonna pay this as I could have got the work done myself but the council got it fixed overnight when it wasn't even that cold. I think it was April so not like it was freezing outside.

Can anyone suggest the best way to tackle this?

[Richlist]

There might not be a 'best' way of tackling the situation.

If it were me I'd.....read any contracts or agreements between myself and the council to ensure they haven't got a contractural right to do what they have done. THEN, I'd refuse to pay and wait for them to take me to court for the outstanding bill.

You could always take formal legal opinion before deciding on any action.

THEN....I'd drop all future plans to let to HB tenants in the future.HB seem to be a problem for you and others and your local authority are not people I'd want to be having business deaings with.dealing

[axil23]

There might not be a 'best' way of tackling the situation.

If it were me I'd.....read any contracts or agreements between myself and the council to ensure they haven't got a contractural right to do what they have done. THEN, I'd refuse to pay and wait for them to take me to court for the outstanding bill.

You could always take formal legal opinion before deciding on any action.

THEN....I'd drop all future plans to let to HB tenants in the future.HB seem to be a problem for you and others and your local authority are not people I'd want to be having business deaings with.dealing

I just checked and they have carried out the work as a Category 1 Hazard existed on the premises which involves a serious harm to health and safety of the tenants!!

You what??? 2 days without a boiler in April is serious harm to health and safety?

The average temp in those days was 16c according to Google!

[Richlist]

The councils terms of reference that they use to determine how they categorise work......urgent or otherwise.... must surely be available. Have you asked for a copy ?

In your shoes I'd want to understand, in detail, how the decision to allocate a cat 1 hazard to your issue was made. In my opinion......if there are clear guidelines that they work to you will have difficulty defending your position.....if its a judgement made by a council employee you may have a chance to fight your corner.

[axil23]

The councils terms of reference that they use to determine how they categorise work......urgent or otherwise.... must surely be available. Have you asked for a copy ?

In your shoes I'd want to understand, in detail, how the decision to allocate a cat 1 hazard to your issue was made. In my opinion......if there are clear guidelines that they work to you will have difficulty defending your position.....if its a judgement made by a council employee you may have a chance to fight your corner.

Thanks Richlist. I like this new you.... Normally you Snap at me every single time.

[Richlist]

I neither like you or loathe you and I snap at everyone.

I never look at the posters name, I just answer the post if I think I have something to say.

[Melboy]

I would suggest thet the Council sub contract all gas and boiler repair to a main contractor who in turn will sub contract again to a smaller company.

This is how it usually works these days from what I know and have seen.

Mel.

[axil23]

I have sent them a letter to appeal against this. Will update what they say.

[axil23]

Got a reply to my appeal. Now they are really getting on my nerves. How can they expect me to pay if I don't know what exactly the condition was that made them step in after only 24hrs.

I write in response to your e-mail to my colleague. I dealt with the complaint regarding the lack of heating and hot water at this property. I spoke to you about the problems with the boiler. I explained to you the need to have the boiler repaired and your failure to do so would result in action being taken by this department. I am unable to discuss the health of the tenant due to data protection.

Should you wish to discuss this matter further please contact me.

Please can someone guide me. I really want to get to the bottom of this as I am sure from her tone on the phone that time that she was a power hungry council worker rather then a Cat 1 hazard. Do it or else we do it was her tone. I never said I wouldn't just my Gas man could not make it out overnight.

[axil23]

Got a reply to my appeal. Now they are really getting on my nerves. How can they expect me to pay if I don't know what exactly the condition was that made them step in after only 24hrs.

Please can someone guide me. I really want to get to the bottom of this as I am sure from her tone on the phone that time that she was a power hungry council worker rather then a Cat 1 hazard. Do it or else we do it was her tone. I never said I wouldn't just my Gas man could not make it out overnight.

Anyone please?

[Mortitia]

What a saga. Under what legislation are the Council trying to take you to court for this money?

Mortitia

[Grampa]

Try these people they may be able to help though I have never used them. Not sure if they just deal with housing benefit only.

http://www.hbadvice.co.uk/

[axil23]

What a saga. Under what legislation are the Council trying to take you to court for this money?

Mortitia

They claim that the works were carried out under Section 41 of the Housing Act 2004. I am sure from her tone on the phone that time that she was a power hungry council worker rather then a Cat 1 hazard. Do it or else we do it was her tone

[red40]

You dont appeal to the Council as they wont be interested. You only have a right of appeal to the Residential Property Tribunal (RPT).

You basically have numerous rights under the appeal process:-

1. Was the notices served correctly.

2. Was the works carried out an required due to an imminent risk of serious harm, i.e top end cat 1 hazard

3. Was the costs incurred reasonable.

Quite simply a notice has to be served on the occupants immediately. Within 7 days, you as the landlord will receive a notice telling you about the works, as will the other 'relevant persons', i.e mortgage company, etc. The notice has to contain information as detailed in Section 41 and your right of appeal. If any of the information above is missing, then there is a strong possibilty the ERA has an inherent defect and liable to be quashed on appeal to the RPT.

With regards to the works in my opinion there is no imminent risk of serios harm to the occupants of the property and this can be backed up by a recent RPT decision whereby a council renewed a boiler and charged the landlord for the costs. The landlord won the appeal on the basis that the council were wrong in carrying out the works as it wasnt an imminent risk.

You can also request a copy of the scoring under the Housing Health and Safety Rating System (HHSRS) to see how they achieved a cat 1 hazard, again it is frowned upon by the RPT if the council arent open about their actions. again would be relevant to your appeal.

After all that you should also receive a copy of the 'costs reasonable incurred' demand for expenses. Again this should have the details of ther appeal against the costs incurred. The council have to show that the costs were reasonable and their added exepnses are also resaonable. If there are no details on how to appeal the costs, this demand may also be deemed as having an inherent defect and agaion i can be quashed.

You cant be prosecuted for an Emergency Remedial Action notice under the Housing Act 2004, you are only liable to the costs incurred by the council.

So in a nutshell you have two rights of appeal, one for the actual works and then one for the costs incurred. You cant appeal the required works if you only appeal the costs and vice versa, they are 2 seperate appeals. However if you are successful with the ERA for the works, obviously you wont be liable for any costs.

PS if I can locate the RPT I quoted above I will post you a link. The RPT decisions arent binding but it will give you an idea of what is do at these hearings.

HTH

[red40]

As highlighted above, scroll down on the link below to Bolton vs Patel and read the brief outline of the case

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2010/10/two-more-housing-act-2004-appeals-reach-the-lands-tribunal/

The link below is the actual RPT hearing and decision, which the council werent happy about because they got it wrong.

http://www.residential-property.judiciary.gov.uk/Files/2009/April/00001RF2.pdf

The Council appealed to the Lands Tribunal (Higher Authority) and they confirmed the RPT were right in law.

http://www.landstribunal.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j727/HA-6-2009.pdf

[axil23]

red40 Thank you very much for taking the time out and giving such a helpful and detailed reply. I will take this up with the council now that I know what questions to ask.

[axil23]

2. Was the works carried out an required due to an imminent risk of serious harm, i.e top end cat 1 hazard

Got this back from the city council. This is the scoring for the property.

Can you make heads or tails of this?

[Melboy]

Keeps some Council jobs worth in a job I guess.

Risk Assessment.....just like your health & Safety laws.....most of which keeps some Heath and Safety Officer and a whole Council department in a job.

[red40]

Its fairly basic stuff really, when you know what to look for

Got this back from the city council. This is the scoring for the property.

They have marked the property as a pre19201 non HMO and they are looking at Excess Cold as the hazard type. I am assuming that you are aware of where these figures come from, but just incase you dont it is from the HHSRS Operating Guidance (page 59, excess cold, hazard 2) The table at 2.02 gives the most vulnerable age group, this being 65 years or over and the figures in the table are based on that. The figures in that table are based on statistical evidence. The national avergae is in red

They have increased the liklihood of an occurenmce/hazard happening within the next 12 months from 1 in 330 to 1 in 56 and as such has increased the hazard scoring from 1066 to 5848. They havent moved any of the outcomes, i.e class i (34%), class ii(6%), class iii(18%) and class iv(42%) as they are basically saying that there is a 34% chance that the occupant is going to suffer extreme harm, I suggest you look at page 46/47 to see what each class involves. But class i covers the most extreme harm outcomes including: Death from any cause; Lung cancer; Mesothelioma and other malignant lung tumours; Permanent paralysis below the neck; Regular severe pneumonia; Permanent loss of consciousness; 80% burn injuries.

Unless the occupant is 65 or older and has a bad medical condition I fail to see how they can justify not lowering the recentage figures of each class of harm. I assume the occupant isnt 65 or over?

You can ignore the first few lines of this speadsheet as they are just basic information for the council and no relevance for you. The important bit is their justification for changing the liklihood (from 1 in 330 chance to 1 in 56 chance), which is the lack of heating and the information about temperatures.

HTH

[Carryon Regardless]

I was having a chat with a M/cr Council Inspector with interest as to how they can apply their risk criteria. An obvious one is risk to the young, elderly, infirm and more.

Not only for cold as in this case but for access and other additional dangers that may exist purely due to the perceived presence of greater risk visitor.

I asked if a T were to claim a higher risk person would visit would it be taken into account. The response was that if stated, by the T, that an ill health granny 'might' visit for xmas then this alone would be cause for a notice and action.

Another one for RL's list

Don't take T's with relatives that 'might' become ill.