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Posts posted by wayne

  1. The world isn't a perfect place.

    Virtually everything in life carries risk and virtually everyone breaks the rules and the law at some time. Society will never resolve all issues and in my opinion there are far more riskier anomolies than impossing electrical checks JUST ON LANDLORDS.

    Lets all stop cars speeding, driving whilst drinking or on drugs, using mobile phones whilst driving. Lets make medicines available to everyone irrespective of age or locaion. Lets improve cleanliness in hospitals, povety & unemployment and lets reduce crime. We could also try to reduce terrorism, world hunger and wars........

    Electrical safety IS important......but it ain't at the top of the list.

    Sorry...you want to make money by renting out houses / flats / rooms / houseboats...then make sure they are safe.

    If you want to make inroads into preventing terrorism do the courses join MI5 or the Police but you will still have safety rules to follow...believe me I know.

  2. Your thoughts and the legal processess you have been through have been well documented waspie in the past on this forum.......but what I am saying what else can landlord's expect in the future with even more landlord legistlation? Fire emergency escape ladders available in upstairs rooms for trapped tenants for instance?

    I have a property that has never had an electrical inspection in 20 years but that doesn't mean it is unsafe. I would be happy to live there as a private person.

    You may well be happy to live there...I wouldn't...especially having to pay for the privilege...without certificates stating it was safe to do so prior to me living there!

    If you think electrical safety of your tenants is secondary to bringing in the folding stuff I've made my point....on a par with my daughters association.

  3. Yes, but my point was why target landlord's all the time with constant legislation?

    When all the obvious routes for landlord legislation have run dry what next?

    My thoughts on that are.......if a Landlord has done his best and can prove that he/she had done all in their power to make sure electrical systems in their houses had been checked and tested at SOME point prior to a tenant moving in then discretion should be used if

    problems occur........BUT if a landlord has a fire at his rented premises and it is proven that a simple inspection as per a PIR/ECIR of the electrical equipment WOULD have located the fault and then tries to cover the facts up that the property had not had any electrical

    inspections in 21 years then it deserves all what's coming to it.

    My only down to earth advice for any landlords that have electric storage heaters installed in their properties is get them and the consumer unit inspected regularly.

  4. Obviously the Government don't agree with regulation requiring the public to have regular safety checks with gas so there's a good chance they will adopt the same position with regard to electrical safety.

    Safety is relative and its really a number game / risk assessment. Lets face it, I have more chance of a driver talking on his mobile phone whilst driving causing me serious injury than someones faulty electrical installation.

    I suppose the argument being...if I own a house or houses and I want people to pay to live in them then they ( the houses ) must be safe for them to do that. If I or my family die or are injured as a result of a fire caused by an electrical fault that could have been diagnosed and fixed for the want of

    spending out a little money then it would be on my conscience and no one else's. If someone is fortunate enough to be in a position to have a surplus house / flat and they want to make a living from it then to my mind it must be kept in a safe condition.

    My daughters housing association boasted of having 22000 houses on it's books...I wonder how many of those are ticking time bombs?

  5. Obviously a good result for your Daughter and why not.

    My concern is why only Landlord's to be targeted (again) for electrical inspection safety?

    What is the difference between a private house and a tenanted house? Same risks in my opinion.

    I totally agree....I've had one done and paid for my old man to have one done at his.

  6. Hi all....

    Back in January I posted a question about criminal negligence by a Housing Association.

    I remember that it caused a stir with some of you.

    The crux of the matter being my daughters house caught fire and when the forensic guy's had finished looking and examining the debris they both concluded that the fire was started because a screw had been left loose in the storage heater consumer unit.

    This unit was installed in 2002 with a recommendation that it be tested again in 2007....never inspected.

    The house had, as we found out later, never had a thorough electrical safety inspection in 21 years. ( PIR or ECIR as it is now called)

    Any way the bottom line is, after many months of jumping through hoops and requesting various documents the associations insurers capitulated and paid my daughter for her losses....just as the County Court papers got to them!!

    This was after it was shown by our family that the association had lied about electrical inspections. Basically they tried to palm off Domestic Installation Certificates as Periodic Inspection reports.

    The saga got to the ears of the BBC somehow and on Monday my daughter and I wil be interviewed by Dom Littlewood with a view to get the electrical side of tenanted property in line with the Gas regs in that rented accomodation will have to be certified by law every 5 years to be sure

    that tenants like my daughter are not occupying a ticking time bomb.

    I'm sure it will raise the hackles of some but hey better to be the owner of a safe house than to have somebody's death on your mind for the sake of £140.

    Cheers for now.


  7. I got some heartbeats racing early in the year when I asked if a landlord who ignored the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 as regards electrical safety was guilty of neglect?

    Boy did I get some of you hot under the collar.

    Any way....today after a long fight my daughters social landlord have put their hands up and have settled her compensation claim rather than go to court. ( I was quite looking forward to the court case actually but never mind).



  8. The HA will a bit late with the goodwill but we'll take the gesture....167 days and counting

    The Government & many financial institutions/ organisations keep people waiting years for their compensation.......eg HMRC, Equitable Life, Pensions etc. So, if you get it sorted & are paid out before the end of the year, thats considered to be a quick settlement.

    Well the HA has to the end of this week to say yes or no and it's then to stage 4..ombudsman and then to court. This particular HA is already in difficulties with various overseeing bodies so I don't expect it to go on much longer.

    We'll see.

    The 167 days refers to the fact that she still 'aint back in her house...no electric...not form of heating...all repairs done...workmen in house all told number of days...11.

  9. I doubt it waspie......where would they start? This would have been a very small insurance claim to any insurer and not worth their while to pursue the HA either in time or money.

    The only reason you are having to pursue this matter is because you have no other avenue to proceed down for financial compensation for the loss of possession's etc. by your Daughter.

    This event, had it been insured by all parties involved, would have almost certainly turned into a "no blame claim" by the insurance companies.

    In our village we had a property written off due to severe flood damage by a blocked stream. The stream turned into a torrent of rising flood water due to main drain blockage of years of falling leaves from nearby trees.

    The property insurance company paid out £100,000 even though the Highway's Agency had never cleared this storm drain and they should have completed this routine work but it was overlooked for decades. It was the contributing factor but nothing was ever followed up apart from the council coming along and clearing the storm drain in fact, they have done it 3 times since 2007.

    I think if you do win your claim it will be on a "goodwill" basis rather than a admittance of liability by the HA.

    Goodwill or not I'm sure my daughter won't mind....£4845 to my mind aint' no small change...but if that is how it is who are we to argue at least she will be able to get her life back on track.

    The HA will a bit late with the goodwill but we'll take the gesture....167 days and counting.

  10. No. Provided the insurance policy was in place and premiums paid the insurance company would have paid up.

    We had a recent case where a domestic heating boiler caught fire and caused over £3000 worth of damage. The claim was settled in 14 days with a new boiler and property repairs. This is the reason you have insurance surely? otherwise what is the point.

    I think you will find that insurance companies can process a claim against a 3rd party but they cannot withold paying out to the policy holder in the event of trying to claim from that third party.

    Melboy you've bamboozled me there...

    Miss B has no contents insurance...she is claiming for her losses against the HA's liability insurance.

    Surely if she had her own insurance and claimed and her insurance has settled that claim then her insurance company would surely have instigated a claim against the HA's company bearing in mind that they are at fault...or at least their equipment was at fault. and that equipment

    caused the losses!

    Makes sense to me...but what do I know...........don't do it COR!!

  11. Thank you for your advice,

    Mortitia, I think you're right, she's just trying to have the last word, but I really don't get why annoying all the court staff/judge just to annoy me, because surely they won't really appreciate the waste of time...

    Knowing the individual, she will turn up and be an smug arrogant arse trying to bully people around as usual. She clearly thinks she's in her right, but then, why not accepting the mediation? It's always good to have a neutral outsider view prior going through the whole hassle of the court hearing, surely?

    Unless for drama queen like that it's their only exciting moment in life?

    My other lodger accepted to be a witness, he saw her using the phone and he can confirm my description of her abusive behaviour.

    I'll keep you posted of the progress... I've sent everything back, so just the long wait now....

    Cheers Peeps :0)

    As a complete outsider to your profession I can only offer this advice about this civil court.

    It is informal..no bowing and scraping.

    Be honest...have your facts infront of you. Do not embelish them.

    Make sure your witness is ofay with the facts as you see the case.

    Dont be like CORand be a smart arse....it won't do you any good.

    Have you submitted your evidence pack or are you not at that stage yet?

    It was a little while ago when I went there, but each of the parties had to supply the other with facts of their side of the dispute..is that not so?

    Any way best of luck.

  12. I was just wondering which Union waspie is shop steward for.

    No union for me...I couldn't strike even if I wanted to before I retired.

    If I make a mistake I am humble enough to say sorry. I protect my offspring and I will not let them be crapped on by any money making machine that does not play fair. It may have intimidated others but not this Joe Soap.

    If the top Johnny of the HA says " The payment of £158 is for safety checks and not Periodic checks " what is he talking about? and it is not to do with Gas!

    Play by the rules and all's well.....try and squirm out of one's responsibilities and you get found out then prepare to pay the consequences.

    If you want to be a LL of any size, keep your tenants safe and you will not have the likes of me making things awkward for you, and being a pain in the arse and making waves.

    If your contract stipulates that the tenant MUST have their own insurance then so be it.

    Question...if Miss B had had her own insurance and got her claim for lost beds etc etc settled...and all this stuff had come out regarding faulty electrics...do you think her insurance would claim against the HA's insurance?

    Yep I think it would...

    Up the workers...keep the red flag flying....don't let the bas***ds grind you down...

  13. I know you didn't come here for assistance, guidance or to learn from those less knowledgeable. Please forgive our misunderstanding of your intentions, it's just that most initially join a forum such as this for that sort of thing.

    I know you don't need any help but hope you will accept this in the spirit it's meant,

    waspie's Paradise

    Correct...I didn't. But it's been most enlightening.....and what ever the link is...I'm sure it will not be anything to do with the thread.

  14. I don't think I'll get into this new debate or two thanks as fiddling tradesmen under the instruction of a HA 250 miles away and the increase in rents and what is paid by HB or not isn't much to do with electrical inspections or contents insurance.

    Thanks all the same.

    Thank god for that.

  15. Is it you that's paying ?

    What is it with you COR.....I am alerting you and others to a fiddle...if you want some one to do job in your house do you want them to fiddle you out of 50 notes???....

    Blimey I have really got your back up....is it because you think I'm against LL's or something?

    AND yes it will be my daughter paying....why do think her rents gone up by £300 a year....because the fiddle's are paid for by the customer...like the shoplifting is paid for by you and me.

    Say something constructive...your always flippant.

  16. We ally closely with a gas safe approved contractor, who can fit bathrooms.

    An insecure neutral connection could(in worse case scenario) over heat and cause a fire if too much loading is on the conductor.

    As for Greek euros, they may be worth something as an antique before long. The outer hebridies isn't really in Yorkshire if we are being fair though............

    Thanks fella...

  17. That is a very very naive view of the British Justice system you have waspie..

    I speak as someone who has been to court a number times and have been gob smacked by the rulings of some judges. Some just get

    it wrong and you have to go to appeal.

    Other times you just get a a very tricky opponent who will try to tie you up in knots and hearings get put off and put off.

    Another time I had a business transaction (contracts) drawn up by 2 solicitors (agreed by both parties) that wasn't enforceable when I took the other party to court for breaking it.

    All been said and done I hope you do win.

    Well I can only comment on the one time I have been to a County Court....it was informal.....and not intimidating.

    Solicitors are there to earn. They don't really care about you...at the end of the day they have their folding stuff win or lose.

    Keep clear of them if you can.

    Trickery is easy to see through...providing you are honest...if you start to tell porkies...don't moan if you lose.

    Naive....definitely not......I was giving evidence in court from 1971 for 30 years all courts all sorts of cases.....if you say what you did/saw/acted on without embelishment and true to the best of your recollection then if you are not believed that is british justice.

    I know this thread is jumping ahead and surmising the hypothetical but I honestly don't think it will go that far.....I want an honest answer....If you were the Service Director of this HA would you want this in the open with all the possibilities that would bring for your Ltd company?

    A little off shoot....a small firm was contracted to paint the rooms with a special sealing paint to stop the smoke debris coming through after cleaning. This paint £72 per 5 Lts!! We turned up at the house on a Saturday morning to find two youths painting these rooms. They had been dropped of by Dad who had gone on to another job.

    This special paint turned out to be Dulux Trade Undercoat mixed with turps. The lady at the Stage 3 complaint meeting when we brought this up said..." we have spoken to the firm and they assure us that the Zinsser paint was used"...." really " I said and produced pictures of the paint

    and turps outside the front door next to the paint kettle and step ladders. She went quiet for a while. If the firm is not used again I won't lose any sleep.

    Night night..

  18. Not strictly true waspie.........I have been following this saga but I don't think I have entered the debate as yet.

    I have a property with storage heaters and have had an electrical inspection and certification for the work carried out and I believe most responible landlords would do the same.

    It's worth mentioning that the property has an old style, 20 years old in fact, fuse box with the storage heaters running off a separate "white meter" electrical circuit box.

    It all passed the safety checks OK.

    I am surprised your Daughter did not have personal insurance cover for her contents because it is clearly stated in my tenancy contracts that this down to the tenant to have in place for their own protection but I will add I do have buildings and my own contents insurance in place as will any othe responsible landlord probably.

    Regarding court cases I have personal experience whereby a Barrister could not win a cast iron case for me (his words)and I guess like many others it was at this point my faith in the British legal system went down the pan somewhat along with the £2000 it cost to hire this Barrister some 15 years ago now. My point is do not think for one moment think you will win any court case because you are 100% sure you will because Courts are not always on the side of the innocent in this Country and this HA you are dealing with may choose to fight their case and from what I reading from you they will possibly win their day in court.

    The "loose terminal screw" Will you have to prove that someone was negligent in the inspection/ maintenance process? I hope not.

    That's all I have to say on the subject.

    Hi Melboy...........at least we can argue the case...yes?

    Like my mate COR says a barrister wouldn't get involved in a county court job...not enough folding currency to be made!!!

    So all I will say about a county court is that I have been there, presented my case honestly with my evidence and the other chap lied and wriggled but with aplomb.

    The judge considered the evidence and made his decision after a 10 minute fag break in our favour......and the other chap walked out cursing before he learned that he would be unable to sell his house...which was on the market already without paying his debt to us first.

    Basically what I'm saying is.....so long as you have your facts straight and you don't bullshit you will win. COR and others will argue that because this EICR is not backed by statute it is useless...but on the contrary.....I think a sensible judge would take into consideration...Firstly common law and

    thence Common sense...then he would consider the Electrical safety Council and it's input....then perhaps The Consumer Protection Act 1987...where Landlords and Agents do have a statutory duty to ensure that electrical wiring and equipment present in a rental property is safe for use and maintained adequately. My argument to the court would be this.....if the HA had followed the advice is promotes on it's website and carried out a EICR in 2005 when Miss B moved in to the property and the fault in the Con/Unit had been found and no fire had happened then we would not be in court.

    If the HA had carried out a EICR when she moved in in 2005 and the fault developed afterwards, we would not be in court because the HA would have carried out it's statutory duty of care and could prove same. BUT it can not do that....it can not go to court with or without whoever and produce any evidence that it has maintained the electrical equipment in Miss B's house any where any how. It can not produce any certificates that show the electrical system in the house has been maintained to any degree in 21 years. It can produce an Installation certificate that shows the faulty con/unit was installed in 2002 and that certificate indicates that in the opinion of the competent person who installed same estimated it should be inspected AND tested again in 2007. Because Miss B moved in in 2005 she can say to the judge that from that day in 2005 no person has been in her property and carried out anything of an electrical nature whatsoever. You are the Service Director of the HA, present your defence......YOU PROVE YOU HAVE ADEQUATELY MAINTAINED THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM OF MISS B's PROPERTY......!!!

    As an aside Melboy...what are the safety checks you speak of??

    I ask because the lady across the road from my daughter ( also in HA house owned by same HA ) has just had a EICR and her old fused unit ( you know the one's with the big fat fuses in ) has been condemed as not satisfactory?

    Waspie..now off to watch footie.

  19. Quote waspie :what makes you a LL the font of all knowledge in respect of this thread....

    I am not , that's why I didn't offer advise, but others did and were told :

    You are taking the urine..arn't you?

    Grampa....you live in a dream world.

    COR....listen you are talking nonsense.

    because the screw was loose... , yes I can belive that.

    Too true....have you read and digested what was said to me in the original threads?....including your last......give as good as you get.

    I came on here to tell the facts of a horrendous episode back in December and to see how some LL's regarded the facts and all I got was ' so what... your daughter wasn't hurt. it was her fault she had no insurance. we don't have to do electrical inspections cause they 'aint law. tough luck.'

    Well we'll see and if replies are patronising towards me I'll give it staight back..ok


  20. I see no mention of criminal proceedings so we're not in the Crown Court with this scenario.

    No intelligent person would employ a Barrister for the County Court as the costs aren't recoverable.

    How much are we paying a Barrister to 'attempt' to recover in the High Court here. I've seen mention of a few hundreds.

    The guy at the top of the table:

    "What the frick are we doing here wasting all our time on something so petty. It would have been easier and cheaper to buy some insurance. Go away before I bang your heads together you're like bloody kids."

    "But you're honour someone could have died."

    "I'm not interested in what might have been, nobody did."

    Hey I'm playing along with Caravanj... he introduced the barrister....Grampa joined in....who pricked your balloon.....this will never reach any court..mores the pity. The HA will show the white flag...they don't want to go to stage 4 and involve the ombudsman in a million years.

    You don't like the old insurance stuff do you COR?

    Well now she's got new windows she will be able to afford some contents insurance....probably.

    But she wasn't liable for the fire starting so she's going to claim on the HA's who were responsible....simples...fact of life....take ownership of your failings!

    For those interested..not you COR....the new Homes and Communities Agency...( taking over from the TSA ) under the heading....

    Handling serious detriment referrals.....The Home Standard...makes interesting reading.

    It's not for the normal run of the mill LL but interesting non the less.

  21. Quote:" so when the forensic guy says it may have been loose at time of installation who can argue with that?"

    Err, the highly trained barrister will when he says to the forensic examiner "so if you are only able to say that it may have been loose at the time of the installation then this court has to assume that it could also have been tight at the time of the installation"


    and the opposing barrister will say "so assuming that it was tight and then became loose between 2002 and December 2011 if the HA had followed advice by the various bodies in relation to tenants safety and carried out a periodic inspection prior to when Miss B moved in in 2005

    we must assume that if the screw worked loose after 2005 ie after the PIR then the HA would have carried out their duty of care, and be in the clear yes?

    FI...." I am not quailified to say but that makes sense."

    Barrister for the plantiff..." so if the HA had never carried out ANY inspection of that screw although it was recommended that it did so in 2007, and had failed to carry out ANY inspection of that screw ever would you say that it had failed in it's duty of care to that tenant?"

    Judge to barrister...." I think you have made your point mr barrister...at least to me you have."

    laters.... lol

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