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Sorry if this is in depth, but this girl is bankrupting us,

In october 2010, i rented our only house out to a girl with children, on a short AST, at £575pm, plus £575 deposit, i at the time was unaware of protecting deposits, at the end of her 6 months, she told us she was going the following month, we informed her, we had her deposit ready, and would hand it to her, on return of keys, plus our inspection of the property.

Since the initial 6 month AST expired, she has ignored calls/texts and letters, We have had her housing benefit, stopped, and paid to us, But it does not cover the mortgage on the buy to let, She now owes us over £2k, She has caused a lot of damage to the property, the police, have visited her, as a nuisance to neighbours, and so too has the local anti social unit, Both saying, there are not enough incidents, to evict her, but, they would back me up in court..I also have texts messages, saying his girls new house would be ready, at the end of March 2012, it was a pack of lies, so she could keep trying to get the housing benefit, So will this text, also add to my proof, she ,said she was moving

So i read up on things, and served her with a section 21 (witnessed), and that gave her 2 months to move, that lapsed on the 23/4/12. and she is still ignoring us, I know she is probably being advised to sit tight, pending eviction, but we just dont have the funds to go to court, i am now on a limited income, with a disabled wife.

! can i say i have used the deposit as repairs or rent arrears

2, i was advised by one solicitor????, just to say she had not paid a deposit, as she wont have the funds to fight the eviction,

3 The local housing trust, have accepted her as homeless, but wont house her , as she is a nuisance tenant

4 This girl is sticking 2 fingers up to us, we feel like letting, it be reposessed, but we only owe 8 years on it, she has financially ruined us, and does not care

5, she did not get a new AST after the origonal 6 month one expired

6, Not sure even if we could affod taking her to court, if my case, may be thrown out, as the origonal deposit, was not protected, but was offered back, on the ending of the initial 6 month AST, and is still here, as were scared too touch it. we just want her gone

Any advice on how to get this scum out, would be gratefully received

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1. can i say i have used the deposit as repairs or rent arrears

A. No

2, i was advised by one solicitor????, just to say she had not paid a deposit, as she wont have the funds to fight the eviction,

A. It will be on the AST?

3 The local housing trust, have accepted her as homeless, but wont house her , as she is a nuisance tenant.

A. Can't blame them for that!

4 This girl is sticking 2 fingers up to us, we feel like letting, it be reposessed, but we only owe 8 years on it, she has financially ruined us, and does not care.

A. Welcome to Landlording in 21st Century Britain

5, she did not get a new AST after the origonal 6 month one expired

A. She doesn't need one. Rolling contract still valid.

6, Not sure even if we could affod taking her to court, if my case, may be thrown out, as the origonal deposit, was not protected, but was offered back, on the ending of the initial 6 month AST, and is still here, as were scared too touch it. we just want her gone

A. Your tenant may well be awarded 3x her deposit leaving you even more broke. Judges have no sympathy with landlord's it would seem.

Other Landlord's will be along shortly to offer you their advice.

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1. can i say i have used the deposit as repairs or rent arrears

A. No

2, i was advised by one solicitor????, just to say she had not paid a deposit, as she wont have the funds to fight the eviction,

A. It will be on the AST?

3 The local housing trust, have accepted her as homeless, but wont house her , as she is a nuisance tenant.

A. Can't blame them for that!

4 This girl is sticking 2 fingers up to us, we feel like letting, it be reposessed, but we only owe 8 years on it, she has financially ruined us, and does not care.

A. Welcome to Landlording in 21st Century Britain

5, she did not get a new AST after the origonal 6 month one expired

A. She doesn't need one. Rolling contract still valid.

6, Not sure even if we could affod taking her to court, if my case, may be thrown out, as the origonal deposit, was not protected, but was offered back, on the ending of the initial 6 month AST, and is still here, as were scared too touch it. we just want her gone

A. Your tenant may well be awarded 3x her deposit leaving you even more broke. Judges have no sympathy with landlord's it would seem.

Other Landlord's will be along shortly to offer you their advice.

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Thanks as i suspected, the law stacked up against those trying to do the right thing, ,Surelly, if she told us she was moving, and we have a text from her mobile,must mean some thing, or can she just say , i am not ready to go, On the basis, this scum was moving, a new tenant paid us a deposit, and gave notice to the same housing trust, saying she was moving into my property, when my tenant refused to move, the potential new tenant, had to beg the housing trust, to allow, her to stay in her home.My new potential tenant, is happy to wait for my home,, but her patience will soon run out.The advice i have just been given, was pretty much, what i had learnt, But looking for some easier cheaper options , of evicting her.

if i go to the courts for eviction, are the payments due up front, or can you add them to the claim against her, thank you tony

I

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There is a lot of confusion on your post, this is likely down to your confusion.

If you progress the S21 to court there is no cost, as far as I'm aware, to the T to defend.

To lie to the court that no deposit was paid would be very foolish. Imagine your position if / when the T demonstrates a deposit was paid.

Until the deposit situation is resolved you are correct that you cannot repossess using a S21. You pay for the court fees and She counter claims for the lack of deposit protection, a sad day for you.

If you have no money you have a big problem.

You can pay the deposit into a protection scheme and go for repossession on the S21.

You can repay the deposit to her.

I believe since April this year you would still liable to a fine as you've passed the 30 day requirement to protect.

Favourite might be to negotiate with the T. That is difficult when they have nothing you can threaten to take from them.

If She allows you to use the deposit for unpaid rents and will sign such you could repossess with the S21.

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There is a lot of confusion on your post, this is likely down to your confusion.

If you progress the S21 to court there is no cost, as far as I'm aware, to the T to defend.

To lie to the court that no deposit was paid would be very foolish. Imagine your position if / when the T demonstrates a deposit was paid.

Until the deposit situation is resolved you are correct that you cannot repossess using a S21. You pay for the court fees and She counter claims for the lack of deposit protection, a sad day for you.

If you have no money you have a big problem.

You can pay the deposit into a protection scheme and go for repossession on the S21.

You can repay the deposit to her.

I believe since April this year you would still liable to a fine as you've passed the 30 day requirement to protect.

Favourite might be to negotiate with the T. That is difficult when they have nothing you can threaten to take from them.

If She allows you to use the deposit for unpaid rents and will sign such you could repossess with the S21.

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The fact the T told you, by text, She was going could be taken as notice and gives you advantage, but only in court.

You could go the S8 route for repossession but it's more complicated and without spending money on legal assistance I'm not sure you would do so well.

To grant a tenancy on a property that's not in your possession leaves you liable to house the new T, if an AST was signed you have been very lucky.

With repossession you pay up front, if / when you win the cost will be awarded against the defendant. Getting the money from her is then your problem as it doesn't sound like She has any.

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Sorry for the confusion, but yes your right, she has ground us down, when her first initial ASt expired, we had told her it was not going to be reniewed, we assumed a 6 month AST , is what it is for 6 months, we arranged to meet her at the end of the AST, to inspect, and get the keys, and return her deposit, since then, she has refused to speak to us, and slams, the door on us, any dialougue is by text, hence, she gave us notice, but now says, she will go when she is ready, Is the none protected deposit the only stumbling block, as i may take my chance in court, she wont even turn up, She wants the eviction notice, to force the local housing trust to rehouse her

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I've not progressed a S21 to a claim for repossession for a while.

'If' the forms now ask the claimant if a deposit was protected it would leave you having to lie, but I don't know if it does maybe Grampa will confirm there is no issue there.

If you progress the claim and She doesn't defend you (and She) will get a repossession date. 2 or 3 weeks for the Court to hear the claim, 14 days notice of repossession. No one need attend it's just a formality.

If She still sits tight you return to the Court and pay for the Bailiff to evict.

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The form is on my desktop as a downloaded template, and it does ask, if a deposit, was paid and protected, i was just going to say no, out of desperation, the T wont go to court, as i know she wants rehousing my the LHT, and is scraping by on benefits, I even spoke to the local housing benefits office, who inform me, thy dont hold a copy of the tenancy agreement, and im almost certain the tenant has,nt.

Dont get me wrong, i am not for breaking the law, and lieing in court, but in this case, i am starting to think needs must, as i know she wont contest it

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The paperwork you send to court will include a copy of the tenancy agreement and I guess that will state a deposit was taken.

The deposit wasnt protected so what ever route you decide you face the risk of a x3 claim or counter claim from the tenant.

If 2 months rents is owing (arrears) why not go down the section 8 with grounds 8,10,11. You could serve one now, apply for a court hearing (on-line) 14 days later and get a hearing maybe in 5-6 weeks time (maybe a bit sooner, maybe a bit later).

The down side is with a s8 you will have to appear at the hearing and there is a risk the tenant (if she goes) could put a counter claim in for non protection of the deposit which may bring any arrears below the 2 months mark.

Another option is to offer a bung for her to move out. Leaves a nasty taste in the month but may be the easiest and safest route.

ps: add ground 14 to the s8 and you can apply for a hearing as soon as it has been served on the tenant (save 2 weeks) but you will have to be able to back it up with evidence.

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Thank you very much for the advice, the T will never appear in court, the police and anti social unit want her out, she is on benefits, so could not afford to go to court, i served her a section 8 several months ago, as well, stating the grounds, owing rent, damage to the property, nuisance to neighbours, having a dog without permission, But i am on a steep learning curve, I have rented this house out for 10 years and never a issue, Then i get the devil of all tenants.

So i am reading and learning for my self.and trying to muddle through, this tenant, has had a section 8 a section 21, and i am now trying to get a solicitor, to threaten legal action, for the house, all costs, and loss of rent, in the hope it will see her off,

Some times you have to accept your getting shafted, and the legal eagles, are going to shaft you even more, Today should have been spent enjoying the sun in the garden, but i have spent the day, going through this great site, and i have learnt loads,Just wish i had a male tenant, would be tempted to take him in the garden, and show him the error of his ways, So thanks for the advice, i will read up on the section 8 proceedure

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Right thanks every one, i think i will use the section 8, but seek immediate eviction, on ground 14, as ahe has been visited by police and asbo unit,and she is clearly a local nuisance, having broke neighbours windows, i just need to know if i can add 8 and 11 to it, or shall i just go with section 14,

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Hi Tipster,

The way to resolve this is not, in my opinion, through Section 21 or Section 8.

Section 21 can't be used anyway (because you failed to protect the deposit as previously discussed. More on this in a moment.

Section 8 is an absolute minefield and I would strongly recommend you do not follow this route. Why? Well S8 involves going before a judge, in a court of law, where the astute tenant (who clearly knows her rights) will plead that you are the evil landlord (who has been horrible to her and hasn't protected her deposit and she is vulnerable etc etc) and she is the victim .... and there is every chance that the judge will award AGAINST you ... meaning that you will go through the entire process and not get what you want (an eviction order).

So ... what do I recommend. Three options as far as I can see.

1) PAY HER TO LEAVE. Offer to write off ALL the rent arrears, refund ALL of her deposit, pay ALL of her removal expenses. This might cost you a few hundred pounds + DEPOSIT .... but this would be the cheapest option.

2) CALL A COUNCIL OF WAR WITH THE HOUSING DEPARTMENT AT THE LOCAL COUNCIL. Ultimately the Council have a duty of care towards this tenant (because however bad a tenant is .. the Council have a duty to provide accommodation for the tenant and her children). Get a meeting with the Head of the Homelessness Department to discuss your predicament.

If you are having difficult getting the meeting - contact the Councillor responsible for Social Housing and tell him you are having a huge problem with your DSS tenant and - if he doesn't get involved (and arrange the meeting) - then you are going to the MEDIA to warn other landlords how the Council put problem tenants into local landlords properties and then don't help when things turn sour.

You must get this meeting ...... it is really important that the Council help you to re-house her.

3) PROTECT THE DEPOSIT. You have broken the law. That is a fact. You must protect the deposit, pay the fine if need be, and get this whole episode (from your perspective) onto a proper legal footing. By protecting the deposit and paying the fine ... you are demonstrating that you are doing everything you can to conduct yourself in a legal manner.

In summary - If the tenant will talk to you ... PAY HER TO LEAVE. If she won't talk to you ... you MUST involve the Council at the highest level, involve the local media (newspaper .... and go on local radio on the morning chat show to warn other landlords about the Council) .... and PROTECT THE DEPOSIT ... because your failure to follow the rules is not going to disappear ... and it is very likely that if you don't get the deposit protected you may NEVER get a possession order!

Good Luck ... you are going to need it!

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Hi Tipster,

The way to resolve this is not, in my opinion, through Section 21 or Section 8.

Section 21 can't be used anyway (because you failed to protect the deposit as previously discussed. More on this in a moment.

Section 8 is an absolute minefield and I would strongly recommend you do not follow this route. Why? Well S8 involves going before a judge, in a court of law, where the astute tenant (who clearly knows her rights) will plead that you are the evil landlord (who has been horrible to her and hasn't protected her deposit and she is vulnerable etc etc) and she is the victim .... and there is every chance that the judge will award AGAINST you ... meaning that you will go through the entire process and not get what you want (an eviction order).

So ... what do I recommend. Three options as far as I can see.

1) PAY HER TO LEAVE. Offer to write off ALL the rent arrears, refund ALL of her deposit, pay ALL of her removal expenses. This might cost you a few hundred pounds + DEPOSIT .... but this would be the cheapest option.

2) CALL A COUNCIL OF WAR WITH THE HOUSING DEPARTMENT AT THE LOCAL COUNCIL. Ultimately the Council have a duty of care towards this tenant (because however bad a tenant is .. the Council have a duty to provide accommodation for the tenant and her children). Get a meeting with the Head of the Homelessness Department to discuss your predicament.

If you are having difficult getting the meeting - contact the Councillor responsible for Social Housing and tell him you are having a huge problem with your DSS tenant and - if he doesn't get involved (and arrange the meeting) - then you are going to the MEDIA to warn other landlords how the Council put problem tenants into local landlords properties and then don't help when things turn sour.

You must get this meeting ...... it is really important that the Council help you to re-house her.

3) PROTECT THE DEPOSIT. You have broken the law. That is a fact. You must protect the deposit, pay the fine if need be, and get this whole episode (from your perspective) onto a proper legal footing. By protecting the deposit and paying the fine ... you are demonstrating that you are doing everything you can to conduct yourself in a legal manner.

In summary - If the tenant will talk to you ... PAY HER TO LEAVE. If she won't talk to you ... you MUST involve the Council at the highest level, involve the local media (newspaper .... and go on local radio on the morning chat show to warn other landlords about the Council) .... and PROTECT THE DEPOSIT ... because your failure to follow the rules is not going to disappear ... and it is very likely that if you don't get the deposit protected you may NEVER get a possession order!

Good Luck ... you are going to need it!

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Thanks Trenners, though its not what i wanted to hear ,it makes sense, There is no chance of reasoning with the T, as she wont reply to calls texts or visits to the house, I am already in dialougue with the homeless unit, And the lady there said, though they have accepted her as homeless, due to the complaints against her, they are not of a mind to rehouse her,

This tenant has a drug habit, if i gave her cash to go she would stick it up her nose, and go back on the deal, and she would not go on the promies of money,I think i will take your advice, go to the head of housing, and push it that way.

Gutted every time i think we may have a way out, there appears to be a obstacle,

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Thanks Trenners, though its not what i wanted to hear ,it makes sense, There is no chance of reasoning with the T, as she wont reply to calls texts or visits to the house, I am already in dialougue with the homeless unit, And the lady there said, though they have accepted her as homeless, due to the complaints against her, they are not of a mind to rehouse her,

This tenant has a drug habit, if i gave her cash to go she would stick it up her nose, and go back on the deal, and she would not go on the promies of money,I think i will take your advice, go to the head of housing, and push it that way.

Gutted every time i think we may have a way out, there appears to be a obstacle,

Hi tipster,

I think that is wise ...... but you still need to protect that deposit as well - do it tomorrow - because the head of housing will not be as sympathetic when he finds out that you have been a rogue landlord and broken the law.

I'm based in Wiltshire .... if by chance your Council is Swindon or Wiltshire or Gloucestershire ... let me know as I have some excellent relationships in those Councils. Send me a personal email to: mark@mlettings.com if I can help you further ...

Good Luck (again)

Mark

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Another option is to just return the deposit which means a s21 can be used. Still be liable to up to a x3 claim though.

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I like the sound of that, i offered her the deposit back, prior to the initial 6 month tenancy agreement running out, she refused it, and basicly told me, to sod off, as she was not going any were, and i can live with the threat of a triple rent fine, As i believe the T has to pay to take me to court , to get this, and i know, there is no chance of her doing this.

Do i need any proof of the deposit being returned, as i feel like saying shes had it back, my word against a junkie, I know im sarting to sound like my tenant, shes driving me nuts, wish it was a bloke, id probably evict him the old fashione way lol

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Turn up on her door step with the deposit in pound notes I am sure she will take it, but you will have to make sure you get a well worded signed reciept.

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Right lets see if we can sort this mess out. Firstly as you have not protected the rent deposit, this has two consequences 1. you cannot serve a s.21 notice and 2. You face a possible claim for 3 times the deposit (penalty) and return of the deposit a toltal of £2300.00. Due to the Localism Act you cannot now protect the deposit, the only way you can proceed under the s.21 route is by returning the deposit to the tenant. This can be done by ;

1. A payment to the tenant with proof of payment, if they will not take it directly do you have bank details you can make the payment to.

2. Evidence that she is refusing to accept payment

In case one above you would be able to proceed under the s.21 route albeit you would have to wait up to three months for the notice to expire now you have a statutory periodic tenancy. In case two you would be able to issue your s.21 but you would need to prove to the court that you have attempted to return the deposit and she had refused to accept it.

If the above is not acceptable to you then you would have to look at grounds 8,10,11. I take on board the allegations of nuisance, but I would suggest you do not use ground 14 as it is a discretionary ground and the evidential issues will tie you up in knots. If you proceed on grounds 8,10,11 the only factor will be whether your tenant raises the issue of your failure to protect the deposit. We have already established that the maximum liability will be £2300, so in order to get a mandatory ground for possession (ground 8) you need for the arrears to be in the sum of £3450.00 if you hit this sum then you are still entitled to an order for possession under ground 8 (even with the tenants claim). If the arrears are between £2300.00 and £3450 then you could still recover possession under grounds 10 and 11 but be aware that these are discretionary grounds and the court may suspend the order. If you file evidence in relation to the anti-social behaviour the court may refuse to use its discretion in favour of your tenant. If you recover less than £2300.00 you will not get an order for possession and you may have judgment entered against you.

I have seen the comments about saying nothing/they will not fight. I see this as a situation where you have a professional tenant. The fact that she will not take her deposit back compounds this view. You should prosecute this matter as a defended claim and prepare for the worst. If they turn up at court they are bound to speak to a duty housing advisor who will inform them of all of their rights (if they are not aware already) so be prepared to go before the court admit the deposit was not paid and invite the court to reduce your claim for arrears by the appropriate figure. If you have taken on board all that I have set out above you should still get your order at the first hearing.

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