landlords liability

[Carryon Regardless]

Guys,

nah I shouldn't, ah go on then.

Do you have a clause making T's responsible for their own belongings ?

Or are you responsible if they suffer damage ?

[Richlist]

If the landlord has been negligent then the landlord will responsible for the damage anyway.

If the landlord hasn't been negligent then he is not responsible for the tenants belongings.

Am I missing something here ?

[wayne]

EasyCert Electrical Software, Test & Inspection, Electrical Certificates

Mr Waspie, maybe this was the sort of thing you hoped for me to find ??

Yep just the thing...different sites have different examples..ie different layouts......if you are attempting to goad me into the 10 year inspection bit as shown on example then sorry no can do.

You can plead ignorance...whatever you want...but I have gone to the people who know and not surmise...perhaps you should do the same.

NICEIC is a government body allowed to authorise competent persons and firms wishing to carry out electrical installations.

They obviously have a technical branch that you can ask for advise. I don't wish to be pedantic but SOME on here would argue that they don't know what they are talking about, but anyway....this is what was explained to me about the ' NEXT INSPECTION' box.

The competent person who has carried out an installation of whatever will enter a time period in the ' NEXT INSPECTION ' box after considering what he has installed and then enter a time in which he deems that a test and inspection

should be carried out...........If he has entered 5 years...7 years...8 years...10 years... then so be it. Lets pretend we are at court....it's fun here 'aint it?.......You produce a Domestic Installation Certificate dated........signed by......who is employed by.......

showing that..........was installed at....... on.........That person who signed that official and lawful document deems that the equipment he installed, because it is....... and because it will...........he considers that it should be further tested and inspected not more than.........years from the date of installation.

If at court another electrician for the defence argues that he would have entered a different time scale because he knows better...so what?.......The HA is not a competent person authorised to Install and Inspect Electrical Installations of any description. If it is found later, because a fire occurred in their premises,

that the system in question was never inspected after the suggested time scale but was in fact never inspected at all, ever, and that the cause of the fire was that system that was now 4 years beyond that suggested time scale for a further test and inspection I defy even you COR to plump for a not guilty verdict.

Any way...think what you like.......perhaps this little tete a tete on here has made some think..... although....nah.

[Grampa]

Should there be compulsory electrical testing on all rented property? Maybe there should.

But until that law is in place the HA havent done anything wrong by not doing one.

It is for a judge to decide would level of fault (if any) the HA has.

Waspie I'm not sure what you want. It is clear from the posts that not everyone agrees with you so the issue is not as clear cut as you may think.

[wayne]

Guys,

nah I shouldn't, ah go on then.

Do you have a clause making T's responsible for their own belongings ?

Or are you responsible if they suffer damage ?

COR blimey your are a one......

We as a family paid out £2347 for improvements to the house prior to moving in. After a stage 3 complaint the HA bowed to their conscience and reimbursed my daughter £500 towards the improvements.I'd love to show you the photo's before and after but it will be lost on you...you'd find something to moan about.

Of course she got permission for the kitchen stuff and fence.....visualise some poor old war veteran siiting in his armchair waiting for god but he's whipped away from his home built in 1937, because he's no longer able to.....whatever. Can you imagine the inside?

Well it was a dump...believe me I wanted nothing to do with the house...it was a slum and I told the team manger ( fantastic name for a 20 year old fresh out of uni who knows all of the world) so. But you know kids.....so I spent time and money making it better and I'm glad I did.

She then saved for the new kitchen flooring etc. Picture this COR... your tenant of your crappy let wants to install a new kitchen and flooring........do you say ( probably in your case) bugger off, never, there's nothing wrong with the one what was put in when it was built...or do you say yes but we will need to inspect it when it is completed and if you leave it will have to be returned to it's original condition. Any costs involved will be your responsibility.

What I'm trying to get across here is...my daughter does not sit on her arse all day swigging extra strong cider...she works hard and has done since she left school....she ( did) improve her home she loved being there. Then her HA shat on her.

It is now 23 weeks and counting. there is still no electricity..no heating.....AND....they spout the same mantra as you.....' it's not law so we haven't done anything wrong...'.....if you think for one second that statement is true and the HA has carried out due diligence with regards to her safety then I honestly feel for you.

This insurance business...bloody right we are claiming and if it goes to court I'll ask for consideration that an ' inconvienence ' payment is also granted. That amount can be at a Judges descretion.

[wayne]

Should there be compulsory electrical testing on all rented property? Maybe there should.

But until that law is in place the HA havent done anything wrong by not doing one.

It is for a judge to decide would level of fault (if any) the HA has.

Waspie I'm not sure what you want. It is clear from the posts that not everyone agrees with you so the issue is not as clear cut as you may think.

Grampa....you live in a dream world.

What I want is for the HA to get off their arse and get my daughter back in her home instead of fannying about duplicating stupid internal memo's.

One example of pathetic organisation..........loft insulation has to be replaced because it is contaminated with smoke.

I contact the firm...they come replace loft stuff and replenish wall insulation as over the 20 odd years it's been in, it has dropped.

The the HA decide that because the fire has damaged some of the windows ( can not be opened due to heat ) they will replace damaged ones.

Window fitters come along take out windows all new cavity insulation blows all over Suffolk

Piss up..Brewery....fred carnos....you get the picture.

Hope you run a better ship.

[wayne]

**We've been through that lot and are just going round in circles, like a puppy after its tail.

To show my concern for your welfare you might consider that if going to Court there may be a downside to explaining how all these works have been carried out.

New fencing, kitchen, floors, extensive decorating, a Judge may see the likelihood of electrical works being carried out here also. This would raise obvious questions.

I am assuming that permission to carry out these works was sought prior. Most would realise the risks of doing such to someone else's property without approval.

Please excuse my lack of multi quote skills being a mere electrical technician offshore (maintenance and installation) for so many years technical stuff evades me some.

[wayne]

**We've been through that lot and are just going round in circles, like a puppy after its tail.

To show my concern for your welfare you might consider that if going to Court there may be a downside to explaining how all these works have been carried out.

New fencing, kitchen, floors, extensive decorating, a Judge may see the likelihood of electrical works being carried out here also. This would raise obvious questions.

I am assuming that permission to carry out these works was sought prior. Most would realise the risks of doing such to someone else's property without approval.

Please excuse my lack of multi quote skills being a mere electrical technician offshore (maintenance and installation) for so many years technical stuff evades me some.

You are taking the urine..arn't you?

Fitting new kitchen unit's and floor tiles does not involve buggering about with electric.

A new wooden fence, by the way this was erected in the garden not in the house involved no electrics...spade cement saw level string digging screws extension lead ( blast that obviously was why the screw worked loose ).

Electrical Technician.....offshore...don't count in my book...no EICR's out in the North sea.

[Carryon Regardless]

There are 2 here with experience in fields that make domestic electrics seem like wiring a bell circuit in it's simplicity.

The fault finding and inspections we have experience of in complex industrial situations would gain respect from those with more understanding than yourself. I can see that your research gives you greater knowledge than us, of course.

You are excellent at seeing only that that suits you. Someone that would take on the varied and involved works as you describe is very likely to believe they are able to do electrical works also. Considering the CC is about the strength of probability that wouldn't be favourable for your claim, well I say 'your' but of course it's not - it just seems like it.

To clarify, please listen closely. The NIC are one of a few bodies that contractors can pay to register with and have their performance monitored by. They do not create electrical regulations, only their own internal policies.

The IEE do create the electrical regulations and continually amend them.

NIC registered contractors are expected to work in compliance to the IEE regulations, the monitoring by the NIC (and other bodies) is to ensure that.

The fact that the IEE regulations states the inspection period to be 10 years (max) overrides any inaccurate statement of belief by a contractor. In Court a quote from the 17th Edition regulations 'will' win the day over a piece of paper shown to be incorrectly completed.

As much fun as this is, and you are entertaining, why do you think we're all out ta get yer ?

No more of this tonight I'm afraid. I've bought a surprise mo mo for my Daughter and we're collecting in the morning.

[wayne]

There are 2 here with experience in fields that make domestic electrics seem like wiring a bell circuit in it's simplicity.

The fault finding and inspections we have experience of in complex industrial situations would gain respect from those with more understanding than yourself. I can see that your research gives you greater knowledge than us, of course.

You are excellent at seeing only that that suits you. Someone that would take on the varied and involved works as you describe is very likely to believe they are able to do electrical works also. Considering the CC is about the strength of probability that wouldn't be favourable for your claim, well I say 'your' but of course it's not - it just seems like it.

To clarify, please listen closely. The NIC are one of a few bodies that contractors can pay to register with and have their performance monitored by. They do not create electrical regulations, only their own internal policies.

The IEE do create the electrical regulations and continually amend them.

NIC registered contractors are expected to work in compliance to the IEE regulations, the monitoring by the NIC (and other bodies) is to ensure that.

The fact that the IEE regulations states the inspection period to be 10 years (max) overrides any inaccurate statement of belief by a contractor. In Court a quote from the 17th Edition regulations 'will' win the day over a piece of paper shown to be incorrectly completed.

As much fun as this is, and you are entertaining, why do you think we're all out ta get yer ?

No more of this tonight I'm afraid. I've bought a surprise mo mo for my Daughter and we're collecting in the morning.

We beg to differ.......you say 10...that applies to Domestic households....I say Rented accommodation is varied and it is certainly mentioned, I will put it no stronger, that in this type of dwelling that inspection should be on a change of occupancy....with discretion.

That is recommended through out all of the publications I have read on this subject.

happy birthday to your daughter...I hope she never finds herself in my daughters position.

I WILL RETURN TO LET YOU ALL KNOW WHAT THE OUTCOME IS WHATEVER THE RESULT.

If for one minute you think that with ALL the facts I have stated on here over the whole blog that a judge would not find in our favour then you are fooling yourself.

[Carryon Regardless]

Oh it's not her Birthday, it's just that the car She used to learn isn't as I think She should have now She's passed.

Qualified in law at University (a real one) I would hope that She has fortune worthy of her efforts in life. She now rises at 5:30 and returns home at gone 9pm some evenings after staying later at work. She's looking forward to creating a nice situation and then She will consider a family, around 28 are her thoughts. The loyalty between her and her guy is something not seen here very often.

As he plays Ice Hockey in foreign parts and She has been studying / working they haven't seen each other, apart from Skype daily, for over 12 months. As She has modelled for some extra dosh She isn't short of other offers.

Encouraging development and understanding of life and it's requirements I source and maintain the car but leave the insurance as her responsibility.

There was a post I was writing last night I'll put it up later.

[wayne]

Page 334 of the 17th edition from the IEE makes interesting reading.....

[kerbut]

What amazes me is on this forum ( and the one a lot of us came from ) is that people come here asking for advise and if its not want they want to hear is have a "go" at members trying to help them.

[wayne]

What amazes me is on this forum ( and the one a lot of us came from ) is that people come here asking for advise and if its not want they want to hear is have a "go" at members trying to help them.

If you mean..disagree with people's opinions on a given subject....too right........what makes you a LL the font of all knowledge in respect of this thread....I didn't come here for advice..I came on here to air my views and concerns.....and from what the responses have been it's just as well.

I have not had a go as you put it....i've put my thoughts on this very serious matter forcefully as have others...nothing wrong with that....if you can't take the heat etc etc.

It will be a week after this Friday that I will post a reply as to how the stage 3 complaint went. The HA I have been dealing wiith will be the one's I will ' have a go ' at...rest assured.

I

[Melboy]

It will be a week after this Friday that I will post a reply as to how the stage 3 complaint went. The HA I have been dealing wiith will be the one's I will ' have a go ' at...rest assured.

I

We all look forward to seeing how you get on with your case Waspie and your reply but probably like other forum members I think you have made your point very distinctly, and the matter should now rest until you have further news on how it all went.

Mel.

[wayne]

We all look forward to seeing how you get on with your case Waspie and your reply but probably like other forum members I think you have made your point very distinctly, and the matter should now rest until you have further news on how it all went.

Mel.

Agreed.

[Carryon Regardless]

We all look forward to seeing how you get on with your case Waspie and your reply but probably like other forum members I think you have made your point very distinctly, and the matter should now rest until you have further news on how it all went.

Mel.

Ah but I've been enjoying myself, spoilsports.

Go on waspie you have the last word, you know you want to.

[kerbut]

Quote waspie :what makes you a LL the font of all knowledge in respect of this thread....

I am not , that's why I didn't offer advise, but others did and were told :

You are taking the urine..arn't you?

Grampa....you live in a dream world.

COR....listen you are talking nonsense.

because the screw was loose... , yes I can belive that.

[caravanj]

NICEIC is not a Government body, it's a private company alongside many other private companies that regulate the electrical industry on a voluntary basis & the only mandatory compliance requirement in the electrical industry is that all domestic installers are Part P registered or if not that they use a Part P registered installer to check & sign-off work.

Taken from the NICEIC website: "NICEIC is the UK electrical contracting industry's independent voluntary body."

Here we go again..............I KNOW IT'S ONLY ADVISORY and NOT MANDATORY.........the fire started because the screw was loose... wether it was left loose at installation..became loose with the heating and cooling...but it was loose...and in this investigators opinion was the cause of the fire...who am I or you to say different?

His conclusion was this....' The fire was caused by an insecure connection at the neutral block within the consumer unit which gave rise to resistive heating. '

If between 2002 and December 2011 some one had bothered to inspect as....ADVISED....that consumer unit... then I say the fault would have been found.....PLUS....please take this in.....The technical man from the NICECI...AND AN INDEPENDANT ELECTRICIAN WHO I HAVE PAID TO GIVE ME A FOOLS BREAKDOWN OF WHAT AN EICR ENTAILS...BOTH....have said, that it is part of the EICR....to remove consumer unit facias and examine and test all that is in them by various means.....also...it is required that ALL terminations are CHECKED FOR TIGHTNESS.

You can follow my mate COR down this road.... no one's to blame it was an act of god nobody could see it coming it's not law so we don't care..blah blah blah............BUT...please don't get me to repeat this..........IF THE HA HAD BOTHERED TO HAVE A EICR PERFORMED WHEN THE OLD MAN MOVED OUT AND MY DAUGHTER MOVED IN ( as advised by the ESC ) AND THERE WERE NO FAULTS DISCOVERED....THE HA WOULD BE IN THE CLEAR AND HEADING FOR HOME............BUT IT DIDN'T...it has not ever inspected the electrics of the house ever in 21 that's 21 years.........SO THEY FAILED IN THEIR DUTY OF CARE AS REGARDS THE SAFETY OF MY DAUGHTER BY NOT ENSURING THEIR INSTALLED ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT WAS FIT FOR PURPOSE.....IT WAS IDENTIFIED BY A FORENSIC EXAMINER AS THE REASON THE FIRE OCCURRED.

Defence Barrister: "Hello Mr Forensic examiner, I'm the counsel for the Housing Association. I see that in your findings you state that your conclusion is that the fire was caused by a loose screw in the neutral block of the consumer unit which gave rise to passive heating"

Forensic Examiner: " In my opinion, yes"

Defence Barrister: " When exactly did the screw come loose?"

Forensic Examiner:"That's impossible to say"

Defence Barrister:" Would this loose screw have definitely been picked up if a recent periodic test had been carried out, say within the last 6 months?"

Forensic Examiner: "It would depend on whether it was loose at the time of the inspection"

Defence Barrister: "So you can't state beyond doubt that this fire would still not have started even if a very recent periodic inspection had been carried out?"

At which point the forensic examiner has to either say no or say yes & get torn to shreds by the defence's electrical forensic expert!

[Grampa]

Nicely put.

[wayne]

NICEIC is not a Government body, it's a private company alongside many other private companies that regulate the electrical industry on a voluntary basis & the only mandatory compliance requirement in the electrical industry is that all domestic installers are Part P registered or if not that they use a Part P registered installer to check & sign-off work.

Taken from the NICEIC website: "NICEIC is the UK electrical contracting industry's independent voluntary body."

Here we go again..............I KNOW IT'S ONLY ADVISORY and NOT MANDATORY.........the fire started because the screw was loose... wether it was left loose at installation..became loose with the heating and cooling...but it was loose...and in this investigators opinion was the cause of the fire...who am I or you to say different?

His conclusion was this....' The fire was caused by an insecure connection at the neutral block within the consumer unit which gave rise to resistive heating. '

If between 2002 and December 2011 some one had bothered to inspect as....ADVISED....that consumer unit... then I say the fault would have been found.....PLUS....please take this in.....The technical man from the NICECI...AND AN INDEPENDANT ELECTRICIAN WHO I HAVE PAID TO GIVE ME A FOOLS BREAKDOWN OF WHAT AN EICR ENTAILS...BOTH....have said, that it is part of the EICR....to remove consumer unit facias and examine and test all that is in them by various means.....also...it is required that ALL terminations are CHECKED FOR TIGHTNESS.

You can follow my mate COR down this road.... no one's to blame it was an act of god nobody could see it coming it's not law so we don't care..blah blah blah............BUT...please don't get me to repeat this..........IF THE HA HAD BOTHERED TO HAVE A EICR PERFORMED WHEN THE OLD MAN MOVED OUT AND MY DAUGHTER MOVED IN ( as advised by the ESC ) AND THERE WERE NO FAULTS DISCOVERED....THE HA WOULD BE IN THE CLEAR AND HEADING FOR HOME............BUT IT DIDN'T...it has not ever inspected the electrics of the house ever in 21 that's 21 years.........SO THEY FAILED IN THEIR DUTY OF CARE AS REGARDS THE SAFETY OF MY DAUGHTER BY NOT ENSURING THEIR INSTALLED ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT WAS FIT FOR PURPOSE.....IT WAS IDENTIFIED BY A FORENSIC EXAMINER AS THE REASON THE FIRE OCCURRED.

Defence Barrister: "Hello Mr Forensic examiner, I'm the counsel for the Housing Association. I see that in your findings you state that your conclusion is that the fire was caused by a loose screw in the neutral block of the consumer unit which gave rise to passive heating"

Forensic Examiner: " In my opinion, yes"

Defence Barrister: " When exactly did the screw come loose?"

Forensic Examiner:"That's impossible to say"

Defence Barrister:" Would this loose screw have definitely been picked up if a recent periodic test had been carried out, say within the last 6 months?"

Forensic Examiner: "It would depend on whether it was loose at the time of the inspection"

Defence Barrister: "So you can't state beyond doubt that this fire would still not have started even if a very recent periodic inspection had been carried out?"

At which point the forensic examiner has to either say no or say yes & get torn to shreds by the defence's electrical forensic expert!

Blimey....head in the sand or what..............

Read my thread for gods sake...... The Forensic guy stated in his report that....." the screw may well have been left loose at the installation process or as a result of other work"............from 2002 when the storage heaters were installed together with the consumer unit that caught fire........THE TERMINALS IN THAT UNIT HAVE NEVER EVER BEEN INSPECTED.....WHICH IF IT HAD HAD A PERIODIC INSPECTION WOULD HAVE FOUND THAT THE SCREW WAS LOOSE...BECAUSE AS PART OF THE PIR.........FASCIA'S HAVE TO BE REMOVED FROM CONSUMER UNITS AND TERMINALS CHECKED FOR TIGHTNESS.......IF THAT HAD EVER BEEN DONE AND THE SCREW WORKED LOOSE AFTER THAT THEN THE HA WOULD HAVE PROOF THAT THEY HAD CARRIED OUT A PIR AND WERE HOME AND DRY.............******....BUT IT NEVER HAS CARRIED OUT......******** ANY ELECTRICAL INSPECTIONS OF THE HOUSES ELECTRICAL CIRCUITS AT ALL....EVER....IN 21 YEARS.........so when the forensic guy says it may have been loose at time of installation who can argue with that????*******SO MR BARRISTER PUT THAT IN YOUR WIG AND COME BACK WITH THE..." are but it 'aint law so it don't matter ".

Caravanj...I know the NICEIC is a voluntary body.

The electrical safety council is an advisory body.

If you want to earn a living by renting out houses to stangers then you have a duty of care to make sure they are safe in that dwelling by making sure to the best of your ability you have made it safe. If that involves competent people having to be paid to do that then so be it.

We used to call it in my old job......' covering your arse' and it's ' resistive heating ' not passive.

[Carryon Regardless]

Urban Dictionary: troll

[Carryon Regardless]

[Carryon Regardless]

Passive–aggressive behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[wayne]

COR.........I hate to say this but them there last 3 things you entered.........just about sums up probably my daughters HA staff..............they , you to from those 3 entries, are sodding about on the internet finding usless crap to look at or playing Solitaire when really they should be looking through their files of their ' business preimses' and making sure those premises are safe by discovering what has actually been done in the way of upkeep....but hey the rent keeps rolling in so who gives a rats arse.

Big day today......1100....stage 3 complaint with HA.....a face to face....not before time....161 days after the fire, all repairs done and still no electricity or heating......bunch of cowboys.

Heard back fom the Homes and Communities Agency who have agreed to investigate the HA....result.