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landlords liability


wayne

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What is a Landlords responsibility to compensate tenants for their loss of personal belongings, if the electrical equipment ie Distribution board is found to be the cause of a serious fire by two forensic investigators.

Does the 'Public Liability' clause in Landlords Insurance, cover this topic?

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The tenants should have their own contents insurance. Some tenancy agreement have it in them that it is a requirement, check yours.

A tenant cant expect anything extra that an owner would have if he was living in the property.

So if a owner occupier was living in the property and suffered a loss because he didn't have insurance that would be his fault. That is not to say if fault can be proven to be laid at someone elses door such as a trademan installing faulty equipment you could make a claim against them. But there is no guarantee you would get anything,that is why people have insurance.

Sometimes in this world things happen that may not be your fault but you have to pay for it and some tenants dont understand that.

I have had tenants say they dont have to pay for a broken window because someone threw a stone at it. Then they get upset when cost gets taken from the deposit. It may not have been their fault but they have to return the property in the same condition. Thats life, live with it.

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Easier said than done....!!

What if the glazing of your Housing Association house is deemed ' insecure ' by insurance companies because the beading holding the glazing panes in is on the outside. Therefore easily and quietly removed?

You are a single working parent (claiming no benefits I might add) and the best contents only insurance quote you can get is £62 per month?...for £10000 of cover??

Try paying for that on a single person's shop wage..!!!!!

Plus....

The faulty distribution board had a 2009 sticker on it denoting that it was to be re-checked/certified in that year and was never done!

Plus....

Two weeks prior to the fire starting, a storage heater is checked by the approved contractor, because it is not working and whilst being checked goes 'bang' and the electrician says ' I've never seen that happen in 30 years !'

Then as soon as the heating is used for the first time at 3.30 in the morning the distribution board catches fire.

I will argue with any one at any time....just because some one does not have contents insurance does not exclude the landlord with the circumstances I have outlined, from being liable for personal loss of their tenants property is these circumstances.

It is very well to say that's life, so tough. But had it not been for my daughters OWN carbon monoxide alarm going off and waking her then I would not be on this site. I would have buried her and my grandson by now.The two smoke alarms supplied by the housing association failed to go off

as pointed out by the Fire officer!

Does any one know what is deemed to mean ' Personal Liability ' in a Landlords Insurance?

And no the Tenancy agreement states nothing any where about having contents insurance as a condition of the Tenancy rules.

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Let me give you my views on your post.....

What if the glazing of your Housing Association house is deemed ' insecure ' by insurance companies because the beading holding the glazing panes in is on the outside. Therefore easily and quietly removed?

You are a single working parent (claiming no benefits I might add) and the best contents only insurance quote you can get is £62 per month?...for £10000 of cover??

Thats unfortunate but the property is what it is. Having glazing with external beading doesn't break any rules as far as I am aware and doesn't make a landlord responsible for arranging insurance. In fact, normally one cannot insure property that doesn't belong to them.

The faulty distribution board had a 2009 sticker on it denoting that it was to be re-checked/certified in that year and was never done!

Plus....

Then as soon as the heating is used for the first time at 3.30 in the morning the distribution board catches fire.

Its a landlords responsibility to provide safe electrical installations in a property. I don't know the cause of the fire but if the landlord is at fault then the landlord is liable for any losses.

Is the landlord at fault ? ie has he/she been negligent in any way ? Was there something he/she could or should have done that would have avoided the fire ?

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Easier said than done....!!

What if the glazing of your Housing Association house is deemed ' insecure ' by insurance companies because the beading holding the glazing panes in is on the outside. Therefore easily and quietly removed?

You are a single working parent (claiming no benefits I might add) and the best contents only insurance quote you can get is £62 per month?...for £10000 of cover??

How does the insurance companies know the beading is on the outside? I have never known an insurance company to ask the question. Also it isn't that quiet when you try to remove them but then I'm no expert burglar.

Early versions of double glazing were designed this way and there must be many 1000's of properties in the UK that still have them.

The option left to you if you are not happy with the property you are in is to vote with your feet and find another more suitable to your requirements.

If you are sure the fault lies with the landlord and has left you out of pocket go to the CAB and see what they say.

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I'm sorry but have I not made it clear.....TWO independent forensic fire investigators have indicated that the fire was caused by faulty electrical equipment installed by the Housing Association.

They installed the Storage heaters and the wiring for same in 2001.

The orange sticker on this electrical equipment indicated it was due for some sort of safety check/certificate again in 2009. This was not done. My daughter moved into the house in 2005.

On moving in she was given a piece of paper with a tick in a box stating that the Electrics had been checked!

The Housing Association may have a case to sue the Electric company that installed the storage heaters and the wiring but my daughters case is with the Association.....SURELY????

There has been no work carried out on the house in that time apart from the outside painting.

Am I to believe that NO ONE is to blame for the faulty electrical distribution board?

AND although through ABSOLUTELY NO FAULT of her's she has to buy new beds, bedding, clothes for her and her son. Some where to store her clothes, curtains etc etc with out any one taking responsibility for her loss??????

Tough that's life get on with it...????

Well the Housing Association better be prepared to go to court!

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In reply to Grampa....Perhaps other residents have requested insurance but some houses are owner occupied.!

I also hope that your glazing beading is not on the outside because you may find that your Insurance company will fail to pay for any burglary you may have and any losses you incur, should entry be gained via your ' insecure' windows..!!

Yes I also wonder how many houses are glazed this way....and if their owners appreciate this ' get out clause' that will be used EVEN if their insurance premiums are up to date..????

Why, when she is settled in her house. Has good neighbours. Has spent lots of her own money in updating the house ( rooms re-boarded and re-plastered, new doors and door furniture, floors sanded and waxed ) should she move?????

I visited this site hoping to get a simple answer to a simple question from Landlords......what is covered by the ' Public Liability ' clause in a Landlord Insurance Certificate? I understand amounts differ but surely the definition stays the same.

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TWO independent forensic fire investigators have indicated that the fire was caused by faulty electrical equipment installed by the Housing Association.

They installed the Storage heaters and the wiring for same in 2001.

There is still not enough information here for me to decide who is at fault.

I'm viewing this objectively so:- here are some examples of why this is not clear to me

* A fire caused by faulty electrical equipment could mean a number of different things....failure of a component part/ failure due to incorrect installation etc......what was actually faulty ?

* So, installation in 2001 didn't fail until 2011, some 10 years later.....that doesn't make a lot of sense.......doesn't seem like a faulty installation. Why did it take10 years to fail ?

The orange sticker on this electrical equipment indicated it was due for some sort of safety check/certificate again in 2009. This was not done. My daughter moved into the house in 2005.

On moving in she was given a piece of paper with a tick in a box stating that the Electrics had been checked!

That seems to indicate that checks were scheduled to be carried out every 4years........installed 2001/ checked 2005/ scheduled to be checked 2009 etc. Are you sure it wasn't done ? Maybe it was done but a sticker wasn't applied or has fallen off ?

I think you need to establish the actual cause of the fire. Whilst there is no legal requirement for landlords to carry out electrical checks or regular periodic inspections (as there is with gas installations).....landlords are nevertheless responsible for ensuring a property is safe and regular inspections help to ensure that it is.

The Housing Association may have a case to sue the Electric company that installed the storage heaters and the wiring but my daughters case is with the Association.....SURELY????

I agree.

If someone doesn't come along soon and answer your question on public liability and landlords insurance you could just call an insurer who should be able to give you an answer.

Good luck.

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Thank you Richlist for your input.....This may be of help to other's watching this thread.......

There is a phenomenon called 'Localised Resistance Heating' . This occurs when an electrical load passes through a termination or connection, which for some reason is not able to properly conduct the current.

Now...my daughters house has five storage heaters in. Fitted in 2001.

I am not an electrician but five storage heaters on 'full' will draw a large amount of current.

Connections heat up and contract.

After time, according to a Sussex Fire Investigator, due to this expansion and contraction,terminals can become loose and this causes arcing which in turn causes overheating which causes things to melt and then starts fires!!

I was shown by one of the Forensic investigators at my daughters fire the neutral terminal block of the RCD board that supplied the storage heaters, it had completely melted down into a burnt lump.

One of the five wires had melted by about 3", the terminal hole which it was supposed to be in was elongated where it had started to melt. The screw that was supposed to hold the wire was approx 2mm higher than the other four, indicating to the investigator that it was loose.

The RCD unit had melted and started a fire on the ceiling and loft hatch and then had melted where it fell on to the floor out side her bedroom door and set fire to the carpet and door.

I think it's a bit naive to think that because you are given a piece of paper that says ' Electrics checked ' you can be assured that terminal screws on ALL of the terminal inputs on the RCD's have been checked for tightness!! Especially the Storage Heater supply which pulls the most current.

You may think I am living in cloud cuckoo land but speak to any qualified electrician and this is what NEEDS TO BE DONE. What's more I am under no illusion that had this in fact been done there would have been no fire! Hindsight being a wonderful thing.

The 2009 sticker was on the distribution board of the storage heater supply when she moved in. From this I can only assume it was 10 years plus since their fitting and last proper safety inspection. The next being due in 2009! (not done).

According to this Fire officer from Sussex, fires caused by the ' Localised Resistance Heating ' are more common when storage heaters are the source of heating in dwellings.

Getting a straight answer out of an Insurance company??? Pigs may fly first.

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OK thanks for the explanation.

Given those facts it would seem to me that the landlord has not been negligent. Why ?

1.) There are thousands of properties with storage heaters......most of them without having had electrical tests, which have not caught fire.

2.) There was not an incorrect or unsafe installation in the property.

3.) There is no legislation in place that requires consumer unit connections to be tested for tightness.

4.) The cause appears to be a gradually deteriorating defect.

5.) I draw a parellel with a plumbing connection that becomes loose over time and causes a flood.....something I have had. Negligence = no. Responsibility = nobody. Act of God, unfortunate and unlucky.

BUT.....thats just my opinion.....no doubt you will not share it. But my opinion is not the one that counts.

I'd be interested to know how the judge decides should it go to court.

Good luck.

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Once again thanks Richlist for your thoughts...yes of course I'll let you know the out come.

One last and final point which landlords may consider as opposed to ' it was an act of god and there was nothing I could have done about it' thinking.

Out of 297 electrical fires attended in Sussex over a 3 year period 33% were caused by exactly the same scenario as my daughters, ALL INVOLVED STORAGE HEATER RCD UNITS OVER HEATING....with 4 deaths resulting.

ALL AVOIDABLE WITH PROPER AND THOROUGH SAFETY CHECKS!!!

Something I shall be pursuing with my MP.

ps...I have just carried out a full check of MY distribution board connections and found that I could tighten no less than five terminal screws!!!!!

pps...still no actual definition of 'Public Liability' in the case of Insurance. Perhaps someone has to die first?

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Thanks for the statistics.

I note that your particular issue and one third of the Sussex fires over the last 3 years specifically involve 'storage heater RCD units overheating'

Can I therefore assume that the issue is predominantly confined to RCD consumer units only ?

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Phew!

I think the Insurance company should pay up for what is an electrical fire through circumstances which it would appear is not caused by malpractice or bad installation at the time of fitting the consumer unit unless it can actually be proved that the consumer unit was not the correct one for storage heaters.

ignore the sticker of 2009 because the general rule is for Electrics to be inspected every 10 years for serviceabilty and correct functioning and even then there is no landlord statute law to have this done anyway.

I have an electrical consumer unit fitted in one of my properties that is 25 years old and there is no actual reason why I should change it now for any upgrade as it does the job it was designed to do back in 1985 and conforms to the electrical building standards of the day and there must be a million houses in the UK in the same configuration.

This problem of storage heaters overloading seems to be fairly common from what I am reading. Anyway, I think the insurance company should pay up and that's it from me on the subject.

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That is my conclusion yes. Thinking about it now after that has happened, and me a mere mortal, it just makes so much sense that houses WITH this type of heating i.e. one that draws a lot of amperage all at once and for long periods should be checked AT LEAST EVERY 3 YEARS and sooner after a particularly long and very cold winter?? Why regulate Gas and not Electricity? That should make a few hairs curl!!

Add also that many of these units are situated in cupboards where other combustible materials are stored and fires spread quicker. Plastic smoke, my interpretation, is extremely toxic and kills very quickly.

Fortunately or not, my daughters were situated above her bedroom door at the top of the stairs!!!! Not the best place to be situated regarding escapes, ESPECIALLY ( don't laugh ) as her windows also do not conform to modern regulations in that she only has 26cms of opening of both her bedroom windows to escape through.

Go on get the tape measure out see how smaller gap it is?

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I'm obviously not a Landlord. As to my suggestion that Electrics need to be regulated like Gas where do you put the safety of your occupiers, first or lower down the list and below income?? Where lives are concerned equipment needs to be in good repair at ALL TIMES. I understand that Landlords will rebel against further regulation but I'm sure if statistics were gathered, dwelling fires started by faulty electric equipment would outnumber fires started by faulty gas equipment 10 to 1??

Just because installed equipment has not malfunctioned in 20 years does not mean it is NOT getting ready to!!!

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That is my conclusion yes. Thinking about it now after all that has happened, and me a mere mortal, it just makes so much sense that houses WITH this type of heating i.e. one that draws a lot of amperage all at once and for long periods should be checked AT LEAST EVERY 3 YEARS and sooner after a particularly long and very cold winter?? Why regulate Gas and not Electricity? That should make a few hairs curl!!

Add also that many of these units are situated in cupboards where other combustible materials are stored and fires spread quicker. Plastic smoke, my interpretation, is extremely toxic and kills very quickly.

Fortunately or not, my daughters were situated above her bedroom door at the top of the stairs!!!! Not the best place to be situated regarding escapes, ESPECIALLY ( don't laugh ) as her windows also do not conform to modern regulations in that she only has 26cms of opening of both her bedroom windows to escape through.

Go on get the tape measure out see how smaller gap it is?

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Too much emotion to arrive at a logical outcome here.

Your daughter might have burned alive, she didn't so irrelevant. Now we only have concern for property damage, and maybe a LL being criminally negligent.

Just to dispense with the other emotional argument that has no relevance, exterior beaded double glazing will have the glass panel set on double sided adhesive tape and certainly from the outside needs to be destroyed for removal, like internally beaded.

As Mel, no legislation requires a LL to electrically inspect. The LL does have responsibility to provide safe environment, an electrical inspection is the obvious way to demonstrate this, as far as is reasonably possible.

The IEE recommend inspections every 10 years or at change of occupancy (for regular tenant turn around this isn't realistic).

It is common for contractors to apply a sticker detailing inspection after 5 years, there is possibility here that the previous inspection was carried out during the void prior to your daughter moving in.

Individual live and neutral connections would be checked as each cct needs disconnection for IR and loop tests. although good practice to check main RCD terminals unless an injection test was carried out this would feasibly not occur.

To blame the installation or the inspecting contractor you need show the installation is amiss in design so check the current rating of the RCD (80 amp is common) and now calculate the draw of the heaters, is this more than 18.4KW (unlikely).

I suggest you will have difficulty demonstrating anyone has done wrong, so insurance.

Your daughter can't afford insurance, why is this the fault of the LL ? There is no one else to hold responsible for my contents so I insure.

The LL has no responsibility toward fire alarm systems, unless HMO, so very reasonably your daughter had her own as do most of us.

This is all very unfortunate, but very fortunate there was no loss of life.

Will your Daughter insure 'her own' belongings in future ?

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Cor....Emotional yes of course what do you expect?

For a start it is single glazed units sitting on a thin rubber seal..believe me extremely easy to remove. the fire demonstrated that when the landing window dropped out due to the heat.

Fire alarms were supplied by the Housing Association. Do you think they supplied them out of their generosity. It was in THEIR OWN interest to do it.

Of the batch supplied to the houses in her close belonging to the HA of which there are 6, 3 pairs were found to be faulty, in that they kept going off and so were changed. They didn't think to change them all just in case?

Emotional yes, as the fire alarms supplied by the HA to MY daughters house DID NOT ACTIVATE. As pointed out by the fire officer!!!!

The one at the top of the stairs had been fitted by a man with a ladder and instead of fixing it so it could be reached and tested by some one standing on a chair or similar he had put it out of reach where only by using another ladder could it be tested!!!

Just as well my daughter supplied her own eh?

Just because there is NO legislation does that make it right?

Did you read my earlier thread...could you afford £60+ a month on contents insurance on a single wage?

We are not talking hundreds of thousands of pounds losses we are talking about new beds and bedding and clothes and school uniforms curtains blinds etc.. perhaps less than £4000.

This is the test I would use....If you have two cars...one crashes into another through no fault of the other driver and causes damage and personal loss to that driver the the person at fault is liable to compensate the other..is that fair.

AND if that crash is the found to be caused by a brake fault which is not the offnding drivers fault does that stop him from compensating the other driver?? I don't think so.

I would not be sitting here writing all this stuff if she had fallen asleep with a lighted cigarette or had installed duff electrical equipment which started this serious fire....she would not have a leg to stand on...BUT it was NOT HER FAULT, she has suffered serious

losses due to faulty/worn/not checked properly/ poorly maintained electrical equipment installed and given a clean bill of health by her landlords....she should and will be compensated! Regulations or not! Legislation or not!

Sorry to be a bore...but what is meant by ' public liability '?

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...BUT it was NOT HER FAULT, she has suffered serious

losses

I sympathize with her situation but it is as I said earlier sometimes in life you suffer a loss that isn't your fault. Its not right but it happens.

You may be correct and it is someones fault but if it cant be proven in a court of law she will have no recourse. Also if the design of the property means it has a high insurance premium and she chooses to continue to live there without insurance she has to take some blame.

I also refer to my other comment, if the property isn't suitable for her requirements move. She may not want to but when a tenant it limits your options.

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Grampa...ok I'm not going any further with the saga suffice to say...watch this space

I WILL HOWEVER TRY THIS AGAIN....WHAT IS MEANT BY THE ' PUBLIC LIABILITY' CLAUSE IN THE INSURANCE COVER....some of which is 2 million pounds or more??????????

Thanks again.

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Public Liability is usually to cover the LL, if the LL so chooses to have such cover, in the event of injury on the property. Eg the Postman falls into a pot hole, I wouldn't view your Daughter as a member of the public in her own home.

It may be understandable to be emotional but now see where the "I'll show them" attitude gets you, or more importantly your Daughter.

It isn't just hindsight that shows you all these things that were unsuitable, it's only now you consider them to be so important rather than earlier when if it was so important it may have had more benefit.

Life's a bitch, if you were a LL you would understand that better.

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Public liability means that a member of the public can claim up to what ever the limit is from you if an accident is caused my something you have bought cover on.

My example: I have just made enquires about hiring a cherry picker to do several jobs on a large, old 3 story building I own. I have to get a licence from the council to park this contraption on the road whilst the jobs are done and the council also want to see a certificate for £7Million worth of public liability insurance just in case something or some member of the public gets damaged and they sue me.

Comprenez- vous?

Mortitia

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I completely understand your last.....but hindsight is a wonderful science.

If a Landlord hands you a piece of paper stating that ' electrics checked' you tend to believe them. But as we have found perhaps to our cost...what is meant by ' electrics checked '.????

I have not mentioned this before but it seems that I should chuck this in for good measure...when we got the keys to move in after it had been ' handed over ' I noticed that one of the plug sockets

screws was obviously loose...don't ask me why but I took the other one out and saw that the live wire had been' nicked ' and was showing the copper cable. I took a photograph and sent it to the HA.

They replied it must have been while it was being used by the service people who went in prior to it being deemed safe to occupy. Electrics checked....yeah right.

If a landlord owns a few houses perhaps he / she will run a tight ship....does the same happen when a HA owns literally hundreds...I'd like to think...but.....

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The only course of action for you in these circumstances is to seek professional solicitor advice in this particular case. The 1st half hour of any solicitor visit is free so you have nothing to lose and the solicitor will give a good indication on your chances of winning any case brought before the courts. Where there's blame ...there's a claim?

Reading through what is being said just a couple of small points......

There is a difference in the technical terminology of "Check" and "Inspection" so you need to be aware of this.

You cannot emotionally put forward any case no matter how strong you may feel about what has happened to you or your daughter any UK court will only be interested in cold hard facts rather than emotions.

I still can't quite see how the contents insurance would work out at £720 a year?

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Public liability means that a member of the public can claim up to what ever the limit is from you if an accident is caused my something you have bought cover on.

My example: I have just made enquires about hiring a cherry picker to do several jobs on a large, old 3 story building I own. I have to get a licence from the council to park this contraption on the road whilst the jobs are done and the council also want to see a certificate for £7Million worth of public liability insurance just in case something or some member of the public gets damaged and they sue me.

Comprenez- vous?

Mortitia

Thanks Mortitia yes I do understand what you are inferring.

Do you think my daughter stops being a being a member of the public when she goes into her house? Hopefully this Housing Association will have insurance cover and what happened could I suspect be deemed an

accident and not recklessness. So if a passer-by caught their trousers or dress on your contraption they could claim for their loss ? because your own building and contents cover would be excluded?

Interesting.

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