Another saturday, another phone call from our tenants.

[chickpea]

Lunchtime on Christmas Eve, phone goes - it's our letting agent.

He's taken a call from our tenants, again screeching that ther is water "pouring" through the lounge ceiling and what is he going to do about it. Bearing he is in Manchester for Christmas and they are in Cardiff...je says that it's up to them to sort it.

They then send a frantic text to us, followed by an answerphone message from the tenant's father, informing us again that the house is "uninhabitable" and that we need to find a new agent because this one wont do anything.

We are left wondering a/ why they only ever seem to have trouble with the plumbing on a Saturday, b/ whether this has anything to do with being presented with a report from the plumber, stating the last leak was their fault (along with a bill for £120 for the emergency call-out and typing up of the diagnosis), c/ whether it has anything to do with the rent being due on Boxing Day, and d/ what on earth they expect us to do about it..

Apparently, tenant's father was on his way to the property to pick up tenant to take her home for Christmas, so they intended to leave the house locked up with water still running through the ceiling if we didn't do anything about it....we didn't.

[Guest caravanj]

I'm sorry but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that you didn't go to check on the problem? In that case how do you know what damage may be done & your insurance will probably be invalid since you've been told of the problem & done nothing to remedy it.

There's no such thing as a Bank Holiday if you're a LL.

[Carryon Regardless]

I would have turned the water off but I don't blame you for enjoying a relaxing Christmas (if you were able to blank it from your mind).

Anyway just because T's (well actually not even them) inform you of such doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

It could be argued that only written notification would be valid and that without expressed consent the LL can't enter the property, and that's assuming the LL is home to receive the message.

T / G'tor responsibility for damage they could have reasonably prevented.

[Guest caravanj]

I would have turned the water off but I don't blame you for enjoying a relaxing Christmas (if you were able to blank it from your mind).

Anyway just because T's (well actually not even them) inform you of such doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

It could be argued that only written notification would be valid and that without expressed consent the LL can't enter the property, and that's assuming the LL is home to receive the message.

T / G'tor responsibility for damage they could have reasonably prevented.

I agree that the T has a responsibility but despite who should have done what & when, I wouldn't cut off my nose to spite my face just to score points with the T. There are well acknowledged legal precedents that allow a LL to gain access to a property in emergency situations which this clearly was since the T inferred that the proerty was going to be vacated with the water leak unfixed.

[chickpea]

Caravanj - if you read back over my recent posts, you'll see that our tenants have been in the house exactly a month and in that time have called us on a Saturday on 3 occasions, about the plumbing.

First time - hubby called them back and talked them through possible solutions...turned out, they hadn't turned the stopcock on.

Second occasion - hubby turned up to the house, stayed and dealt with the situation for 3 hours while they buggered off to daddy's. Hubby then got emergency plumber in to fix the problem (caused by them) - we got presented with a bill for £120, which we passed on to them, since the report clearly stated it was their fault.

This time, they called the letting agents, who were closed for Christmas. They then texted us, then called the agent director's personal number - and he told them (quite rightly) that they would need to call a plumber. They, not wishing to have their plans for Christmas Eve spoilt, left a message on hubby's phone, demanding he do something about it.

Why should we call a plumber? What else can we do that they couldn't do for themselves???

[Richlist]

I'm not sure I agee with the content of your post Tracey. Unfortunate as the circumstances are and you have my sympathy......a landlord has responsibilities and sticking your head in the sand won't make the problem go away.

you'll see that our tenants have been in the house exactly a month and in that time have called us on a Saturday on 3 occasions, about the plumbing.

Is the fact that its a Saturday significant ? Problems can require fixing on any day of the year.

First time - hubby called them back and talked them through possible solutions...turned out, they hadn't turned the stopcock on.

Thats not particularly unusual and not an unexpected part of being a landlord.

Second occasion - hubby turned up to the house, stayed and dealt with the situation for 3 hours while they buggered off to daddy's.

Nothing unusual there either.

Hubby then got emergency plumber in to fix the problem (caused by them) - we got presented with a bill for £120, which we passed on to them, since the report clearly stated it was their fault.

Seems reasonable for the bill to be presented to the tenants if it was caused by them.

This time, they called the letting agents, who were closed for Christmas. They then texted us, then called the agent director's personal number - and he told them (quite rightly) that they would need to call a plumber. They, not wishing to have their plans for Christmas Eve spoilt, left a message on hubby's phone, demanding he do something about it.

I can't work out if you are suggesting, guessing or assuming that the problem this time is the same as previously. If you are.....its a guess. If you aren't it is the landlords responsibility to fix it......Christmas Eve or any other day of the week.

Why should we call a plumber? What else can we do that they couldn't do for themselves???

Getting frustrated won't solve anything. You need to take action NOW. I can't find your previous posts on this issue but I seem to remember thats some suggestions were made about changes that would improve things......eg removing & capping the hand shower & applying a silcon seal to the problem area. I take it they have not been carried out ?

I've had callouts on Boxing Day to various problems so, I kinda know what its about. But permanently fixing a problem is far prefferable to having a plumber apply a sticking plaster to the area and allowing a probem to reoccour.

[chickpea]

Ok, here's my take on things, to explain my outlook on this.

My comment about every problem occuring on a Saturday is because I have a feeling that the tenants do something differently on a Saturday than on other days of the week - ergo, this isn't a fault problem, but a user problem.

The water system worked for the previous people who owned the house. It worked for us without problem for the 10 weeks prior to the tenants moving in. It has worked for the 3 weeks since the plumber went in.

The tenants have been told by the agent NOT to contact us because the property is managed. They have also been told that, should they need to, they should ring a plumber and deal with the issue. The agent is under the impression that the tenants are of the opinion that ANY problem that arises, we have to jump and deal with - this may extend to changing lightbulbs or cutting the grass, the way things are going.

We pay the agent to manage the day-to-day problems of the property. The agent has informed both us and the tenant that the tenant is to call a plumber to resolve the issue.

The tenant doesn't see why they should, and tries to threaten us that they will let the house flood rather than do as asked....and we're the ones being unreasonable here?

We've acted on the advice given in other posts - that tenants aren't absolved of all responsibility once they sign the agreement and shut the front door behind them. They are in the property and have been asked to call a plumber - that's all.

[Melboy]

Your tenants have to go Tracy!!

[Richlist]

My comment about every problem occuring on a Saturday is because I have a feeling that the tenants do something differently on a Saturday than on other days of the week - ergo, this isn't a fault problem, but a user problem.

Having a feeling that its a user problem this time is pure guesswork on your part.

Given the tenants attitude and approach to problems I'm not sure I'd be happy to adopt your way of dealing with the situation. You may feel you are entirely right in just reminding them that they should call a plumber but the result could be disasterous for you and your property.

In your shoes I'd be inclined to call the plumber.......and serve them with another bill if justified .......but a do nothing approach risks a catastrophe.

As they have just begun their tenancy agreement, terminating the tenancy early is not an option. So, you are likely to have to deal with these tenants for a few more months yet. Why not put a permanant fix in place now ?

[Guest caravanj]

Caravanj - if you read back over my recent posts, you'll see that our tenants have been in the house exactly a month and in that time have called us on a Saturday on 3 occasions, about the plumbing.

First time - hubby called them back and talked them through possible solutions...turned out, they hadn't turned the stopcock on.

Second occasion - hubby turned up to the house, stayed and dealt with the situation for 3 hours while they buggered off to daddy's. Hubby then got emergency plumber in to fix the problem (caused by them) - we got presented with a bill for £120, which we passed on to them, since the report clearly stated it was their fault.

This time, they called the letting agents, who were closed for Christmas. They then texted us, then called the agent director's personal number - and he told them (quite rightly) that they would need to call a plumber. They, not wishing to have their plans for Christmas Eve spoilt, left a message on hubby's phone, demanding he do something about it.

Why should we call a plumber? What else can we do that they couldn't do for themselves???

I have read your previous posts about the boiler etc.

The problem is, Tracy, that you're making the classic mistake of tagging this latest problem onto all the past problems. You have to treat each problem on it's own merits so lets isolate the hard facts from the emotive issues as regards this latest problem.

1: there is water pouring through the lounge ceiling

2: the T is going to vacate your house & leave the water pouring through the ceiling.

It ain't the T's property that's going to be ruined, it's yours so I still can't understand why you said you didn't intend to do anything.

[Carryon Regardless]

I suggest you come back with an update when you are aware of the actual outcome re the amount of damage.

If they have failed to take preventative action and made the house uninhabitable (even in their opinion) there needs to be thought as to what next, but this may be a storm in a bath tub.

You may find benefit in considering how able the g'tor is to satisfy any significant claim though, as it's often left to the owner to finance any result in real life.

[chickpea]

Thanks for all your replies.

The tenants should never have had our phone number to be able to contact us.

They were instructed by the agent what to do - IF we had changed to the new agent, the instruction would be the same.

Last time they claimed there was "water pouring through the ceiling", it was actually a small drip coming through the light fitting. Their answer to any problem, no matter what it is, is to scream emergency and then threaten to leave if it isn't dealt with by us personally.

The agency is closed until January 3rd. They are working for us, paid by us, so I'm failing to understand why the buck stops with us over this. They issued instructions to the tenants as to what they had to do - ring a plumber.

IF they were paying a mortgage on the property, instead of rent, that's what they'd have to do.

If this latest problem was caused by negligence on our part, eg by a previous issue that hadn't been dealt with when requested, then I could see it from the tenant's point of view.

What would our position be if we had 20+ properties, all of which spiked a plumbing problem on Christmas Eve?

I'm sorry but I'm still failing to see why it's unreasonable to expect a tenant to carry out instructions given to them by the letting agent who is paid to deal with the day-to-day running of the property.

And let's be honest here - these tenants have been a "problem" from the off, which is another reason why I'm not prepared to ask how hugh every time they shout jump.

They were issued with the report and bill from the last plumbing "emergency", but 2 weeks later haven't actually made any kind of response yet.

Maybe it'll come back and bite me on the arse, but my thinking is that this should be a 2-way relationship - and they have to do their bit too.

[Chestnut]

Tracey,

Speaking from experience, I would go and investigate, arrange to meet with a plumber to sort out the problem, and continue to inspect until satisfied the problem is properly fixed and that the tenant understands so and can't repeat it. You cannot possibly leave an agent, let alone a tenant, to deal with a problem in your property as potentially serious as this.

Agents may have holidays; landlords don't.

Your tenant may be crying 'wolf' but i.m.o. water dripping through a light fitting is not a "day-to-day" problem. It qualifies as an emergency as ceilings can and do collapse causing major building damage - and alarmingly quickly if the problem remains unattended.

[chickpea]

Just checked my emails, and found one from the agent this afternoon, informing us that he has called at the house but found no-one in and it doesn't look anyone has been there for a few days. He's looked through the front window and "all seems fine". He's also left them a note, telling them he's called and asking them to contact him as soon as. He's also informed his staff of what has happened.

Melboy - I agree: the tenants have to go. As has been said previously, they seem to think they are living in an hotel with some kind of room service. We are hoping to do the "judo throw" next time they shout uninhabitable and offer them to leave at the end of this rental month.

Caravan - I appreciate your responses.. I'm just baffled as to how the tenant-agent-landlord relationship works, if we pay to have the property managed but then have to manage it ourselves. The tenants ordinarily wouldn't be able to contact us. The agents are their first port of call and they have instructed them as to what to do. In any other situation, we wouldn't necesarily have been made aware of the problem until after it was dealt with - that is the agreement on our letting agreement and on the tenancy agreement. Even assuming that our present agent is absolutely useless, the agent we are moving to says the same thing - tenants are provided with the number of a plumber and told to get on with it. Any repairs under £150+ vat are authorised by the agent without informing us. Anything more serious, the agent requests quotes and waits to be given instruction.

We weren't in a position to do anything more than the tenants could do - in fact, less, as they were at the property and we were away from home.

The last time my husband went and dealt with the plumbing issue, the female tenant went to the agent and tried to complain about his "patronising manner" - because he had calmly explained to her that, as the property belonged to us, it was not in our interests to leave water coming through the ceiling.

The agency staff have had enough of her shouting the odds at them, and have been told by the director not to put up with it further. She is, according to her father, "hot-headed".

My biggest gripe with all of this is the total lack of any kind of respect from her - the overwhelming impression she gives is that she has the right to demand anything she likes from us, at any time of the day or night. She's not interested in a solution, she's only interested in making sure she gets her perceived money's worth.

Clearly we are going to have to deal with the problem of the leak, but there are also a lot of issues with the tenancy to be sorted out too.

[Richlist]

As unfortunate as the situation is, IMHO, nothing the tenant has done is sufficient to provide unilatereal grounds for termination of the tenancy agreement.

Only if both parties agree to termination is it likely that you will be able to gain back possession of your property before the end of the fixed term of the AST.

[chickpea]

We aren't intending to force them out, Richlist.

As I said, the next time they claim that the house is uninhabitable and that we need to change agents, we'll OFFER them to terminate the agreement at the end of this rental month.

Hopefully, this may force the issue - they can't, on one hand, complain that the house is dreadful/uninhabitable/unsafe etc and on the other, claim that they are desperate to stay without realising the contradiction.

[chickpea]

Hubby has spoken to a staff member at the agency today, and apparently our plumber (who dealt with the previous issues) is due to go in to the property tomorrow.

No-one seems to know whether the tenants are living in the property still, what the problem is or what (if any) steps have been taken to remedy it by the tenants.

We have also been informed that they have not paid this month's rent - due on the 26th.

What is our position (as mentioned, I think, by Cor), regarding the plumber entering the property? We aren't clear whether the tenants have been informed (guessing they have), whether they'll be present at the property etc. Does the plumber have to be accompanied by anyone, eg letting agency staff, as key holders. Do we have to give the tenants some kind of notice for him to enter the property?

Obviously we want to play this by the book, in case of any further problems from the tenants.

[Chestnut]

Tracey - check your tenancy agreement. It should include something to the effect:

Anyone authorised by the landlord or their agent may enter the property for the purpose of repair giving 24 hours notice (except in case of emergency).

Your opening post: "Lunchtime on Christmas Eve, phone goes - it's our letting agent.

He's taken a call from our tenants, again screeching that ther is water "pouring" through the lounge ceiling and what is he going to do about it."

Isn't this is an emergency? If in doubt, read my earlier post again.

[Melboy]

We have also been informed that they have not paid this month's rent - due on the 26th.

Now we are getting down to the nitty-gritty!

Emergency Tracy.......you don't need anyones permission to enter to save your property from further damage.

Mel.

[chickpea]

Don't wish to say I told you so, but....

...I was right when I said the tenants obviously do something differently on a Saturday than the rest of the week -too much of a coincidence that all 3 plumbing "issues" have occured on a Saturday!

Plumber has been to the property today. He immediately spots that the bath plug plunger/release knob thingy on the side of the bath - that also acts as the overflow - is hanging loose. Tenant claims not to have noticed. (does that absolve him from any responsibility??)

On the Saturday in question, he runs himself a bath. Not only does he run it to a depth over the level of the overflow, once he gets in, he continues to run the taps for as long as he's in, happy that the water is pouring through the overflow (which is not now properly connected to the overflow pipe) - apparently, that's how he always has his bath. (this of course, would also explain how he managed to drain the system and create an air lock the first weekend he was living in the house).

The water starts to trickle (NOT pour) through the ceiling below. He gets out of the bath, drains it....and magically, some short while later, the trickle stops.

All the plumber has done is tighten the plug sinker back into the overflow pipe - something the tenant could have done themselves.

Clearly, the house never was, nor ever has been, unsafe or uninhabitable. Neither has the plumbing been faulty in either case - both times it has been down to someone/thing loosening imprtant hose connections and then misusing the amenities IMO.

So - are we being unreasonable in thinking that this kind of small job is the tenant's responsibility?

Had they ever informed us/the agents that the plug sinker had worked loose, we could have either advised them to tighten it, or tightened it ourselves - I don't see how we can be held responsible for something we weren't informed off until their ignorance of the situation led to a bigger problem.

[Carryon Regardless]

Perhaps I'm missing something but don't understand how a loose plug release plunger (usually basins not baths) can cause the overflow to leak.

The mechanism worked loose. If it's not down to design then it would be considered to be a maintenance issue. I wouldn't expect T's to continually check such things and on previous occasions it was missed by the Plumber and yourselves looking for a cause, this sort of lets the T off the hook for missing it also.

How someone takes a bath is their business, citing abuse isn't appropriate. A big question of why he does this is relevant but still his business. The excess water should have gone down the overflow to drain - then no problem.

Your T's are young and still learning. All too often we suffer as T's learn (or fail to), this is looking like it's your turn as I don't see (unless I'm missing something as said) how they are at fault.

My feeling is these T's are going to continue to be a pain in the A (not Agent) and when possible I would want shut. Your not going to enjoy peace with these.

A surprise is that you have experience and yet demonstrate a naive attitude. T's aren't as we or they wouldn't be T's, they live to different standards and styles. When I design my properties I design for idiots, fancy baths - not a chance. If it can be abused it will be and it won't be their fault.

[Melboy]

You won't want to read this Tracy.......

Here's the difference between a "mature" tenant and what your having to put up with!

2 weeks ago my tenant phones me to say he has had a bath leak and water was coming through the lounge ceiling boards in a large damp patch. He then went on to say "I have taken off the bath panel and it's a tap joint connecter leaking so I have switched off the water and won't use the bath until it's fixed. When you get a minute Mel. could you come and fix the tap asap?" Which I did the following morning......sorted.

Now that's tenant and landlord working together Tracy.

Mel.

[chickpea]

Clearly I am just stupid, Cor.

I can only comapre the situation I'm describing to this example -

If a plug socket comes loose from the wall, do you ignore it and stick your fingers behind it?

Where's there's water, gas and electricity in a property, there is potential for the tenant to drown/gas/electrocute themselves.

If a tenant is expected to change the washer in a dripping tap, why can't they be expected to screw back in the knob that plunges/releases the plug? Or at least report it as loose (in this case, hanging from the bath side, visibly) so that it can be dealt with - and in the meantime, not use it in such a way that is likely to cause damage to the property?

If your toilet blocks, you don't carry on flushing it regardless, do you?

Somewhere among posts on this forum, it has been stated that tenants are to take reasonable action to limit potential damage - if the overflow isn't working, is continuing to reply on it to empty your eexcess bath water really reasonable?

Putting all this aside, do you really think that such a situation demanded screams of "emergency" and "uninhabitable" and a witholding of this month's rent, bearing in mind that the problem was resolved as soon as the bath was drained??

If the front door wasn't locking properly and the tenant failed to either fix it himself, or report it to the landlord, do you really think the landlord would be responsible for him having all his belongings nicked? Seriously?

[Carryon Regardless]

Am I able to reply now you've shot me the messenger.

Only foolin' Yah missed me.

We all recognise that the T's are pillocks, impetuous, demanding, immature.....

Now go in front af a Judge and tell him that you and your professional couldn't identify the cause, but the T should have repaired the problem to prevent damage to who's property ?

What did I miss with the overflow being expected to deal with the excess water ?

If a T runs water into a bath why do you blame him if it ends up in inconvenient places ?

I try to imagine from the picture you draw (in words) the picture I see is failure of design.

Where they are unreasonable with attitude and exaggerate with descriptions sue them for the inconvenience - Good Luck with that one.

I got used to suffering crap from T's years ago, and their neighbours, and the Police because of T activities, and the Environmental Health, and the HB for T abuse of claim, and parents when I've evicted (and Brothers actually), and more.

We are LL's we are responsible for all the wrongs within a mile of our T's and properties.

Unless I've missed something.

[Richlist]

I have a bath in my own property with the same design of overflow/ bath plug release.

If its fitted correctly (tightly) it will work correctly and will not leak. Normally to loosen it you need to gain access from behind the bath panel. So either:

1. It was loose when they moved in or

2. The tenants were unsure of the design and the way it functioned. They probably over stressed the turn knob, possible over stressed it in the wrong direction and hey presto, its loose and leaking.

So,...... Did someone demonstrate it to them when they moved in ?

How old are these tenants ?.......I have an age limit of 25 specifically for this reason as most people who are younger are not experienced at looking after themselves let alone MY property.