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DHSS nightmare continued, unbelievable

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Just to keep you updated on this horrid person and hisantics

He is nowhere to be found but has left his son in theproperty while he has secured another place. The beloved council has now sentus paperwork (today) to say that WEnow owe them £5,500 in overpaymentsas he has moved out in December 2010!!!But they were paying for till now, their portion of the rent.

How can this person get away with this sort of stuff, howcan the council be so irresponsible when they investigated and reinstated backin Dec 2010 to say he is living there. Then some 7 months change their minds.

The tenant still has belongings in the house , along withhis son, but treats it like a halfway retreat by coming and going as hepleases, the neighbour said that the tenant only came 2 weeks ago to start tomove some of his belongings, but the son has all his belongings there.

· How do we prove to the council that he is livingthere for 7 months?

· If we say that his son is also living there,would we lose even more money on the claim.

· What accountability does the council have toinform us immediately (not 7 months later) and do we have a right, to see what information he has supplied themor is that same old horseshit Data Protection

· Could thisbe a way of the council trying to cover up a double claim?

This is definitely the straw that has broken us

HELP blink.gifblink.gif

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Can you add this to your original post so we can get the full picture?

Mortitia

sorry for the delay, however as you can see i am a bit new at this. how do you "add to original post" on the forum

if you want to save time, you can view it on DHSS nightmare on page 3

in brief at this moment, it seems that the tenet has moved out owing all this rent, he informed the council that he moved out in Dec 2010 , but only advised the council in april 2011 that he moved out in Dec 2010??

but the council still paid their portion of the rent till July 2011?? now they are claiming all the back rent from last year,

we have tried to talk to the council but they are claiming the data protection act, the tenant has been caught on a double claim we believe, and as per the landlord is the easy touch.

to this day we still have not had notification from the tenant he still has the keys to the property and all his belongings are still in the property, but the council say nothing to do with them.

i realise we have been suckered but we are loosing hand over fist on this a-----e

thanks

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Hi PIN,

Some comments .....

1) The COUNCIL do not assess Housing Benefit claims .... the DHSS / DWP perform this assessment and pay benefit entitlement to the tenant. It is the TENANTs benefit ....... he tells the DHSS where he is living.

2) A tenant can only physically live in one property. ie: ONE TENANT = ONE HOUSING BENEFIT CLAIM.

3) The tenant has told the DHSS / DWP that he doesn't live at your property anymore ... and that he moved out in December 2010.

4) So .... the DHSS / DWP have stopped paying you ... and have diverted all of the tenant's benefit to the new landlord as of December 2010 ...... and are now claiming the over payment back from you ....... that is not unreasonable IF IT WERE TRUE! (Which it seems it is not).

Some thoughts ......

1)First - and foremost - get your property back. Serve the correct Section 21 / Section 8 notices ... get the tenant out ... or get the possession order then get the tenant out ...

2) Also .... you need to appeal this. You need to contact the finance department at the local Council (who deal with HB overpayment recovery) and get the officer to come and visit the property (where they can see that the tenants possessions are still in place).

3)Don't hold your breath! The tenant has stated that he didn't live at your house after December 2010 and that he was living somewhere else (so another landlord is being paid rent from December 2010 onwards). The HB department will not pay two landlords for the same tenant ... no matter how hard you plead ......

Which means .... Your only real course of action - eventually - is to sue the tenant ... but that is pointless because he is on DHSS benefit .. and has no money .......

My advice ... get your property back .....

Mark

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Hello all

the latest saga in this DHSS plank that we have come across.

We finally managed to get the so called son out of the property with the help of a really good agent, i can only say as i find the services of these really professional agents.smile.gif

They all know their stuff and the P--s takers ph34r.gif that have hidden behind the councils many so called rules

The council have realised that they have been paying the tenant for 2 properties in different boroughs (only due to his slip) they finally done a trace and as if they were amassed ohmy.gif the same person same NI number same DOB have been receiving a double claim,sad.gif

after being told to" jog on" by the council many times when we reported this fraud, they have realised that the tenant is not a very" credible person" they don't sayunsure.gif

We now have to go to a tribunal to find out who is liable for the full amount

It really is a complete travesty that the councils don't want to believe what is being told to them

Still we live in hope dry.gif

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Guest tenants_from_hell

It is the tenants fault not yours!

MY recently new tenants tried claiming on 2 houses, until I asked the old landlord he said as far as he knows they aint moving. The council decided they will pay for one month the tenants were in there, but they trying to claim they didnt live there! And I got rid of them.

Never go for DSS!

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Just to keep you updated on this horrid person and hisantics

He is nowhere to be found but has left his son in theproperty while he has secured another place. The beloved council has now sentus paperwork (today) to say that WEnow owe them £5,500 in overpaymentsas he has moved out in December 2010!!!But they were paying for till now, their portion of the rent.

How can this person get away with this sort of stuff, howcan the council be so irresponsible when they investigated and reinstated backin Dec 2010 to say he is living there. Then some 7 months change their minds.

The tenant still has belongings in the house , along withhis son, but treats it like a halfway retreat by coming and going as hepleases, the neighbour said that the tenant only came 2 weeks ago to start tomove some of his belongings, but the son has all his belongings there.

· How do we prove to the council that he is livingthere for 7 months?

· If we say that his son is also living there,would we lose even more money on the claim.

· What accountability does the council have toinform us immediately (not 7 months later) and do we have a right, to see what information he has supplied themor is that same old horseshit Data Protection

· Could thisbe a way of the council trying to cover up a double claim?

This is definitely the straw that has broken us

HELP blink.gifblink.gif

You will probably be okay on the overpayments. Overpayments of Direct pay to the landlord are only recoverable if the person receiving the payment (you) could not have reasonably knows that it was an overpayment at the time of receiving the overpayment and did not contribute to the error.. see HB Regs 100 (1)

Good Luck

London Housing Solutions

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Yes the general rule-of-thumb for benefit overpayments is that overpayments caused by official error are not usually claimed back, the exceptions being official mistakes made by HMRC where overpayments or undercharges are claimed back.

An overpayment caused by the benefit recipient is normally claimed back as per Housing Benefit 2006 Para 100 (3) & (4).

I think you'll find that the DWP may argue that the claimant did cause or materially contribute to that mistake, act or omission & therefore the DWP will undertake recovery action. At least that's the line I would have taken when I did prosecutions & recovery actions for them.

Having said that, don't pay & don't make any offer to pay & don't enter into any negotiations with the DWP. There's a chance that they might just write it off if it looks like getting too messy or expensive to chase.

If the DWP persists then contact your MP & ask him / her to intervene.

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Yes the general rule-of-thumb for benefit overpayments is that overpayments caused by official error are not usually claimed back, the exceptions being official mistakes made by HMRC where overpayments or undercharges are claimed back.

An overpayment caused by the benefit recipient is normally claimed back as per Housing Benefit 2006 Para 100 (3) & (4).

I think you'll find that the DWP may argue that the claimant did cause or materially contribute to that mistake, act or omission & therefore the DWP will undertake recovery action. At least that's the line I would have taken when I did prosecutions & recovery actions for them.

Having said that, don't pay & don't make any offer to pay & don't enter into any negotiations with the DWP. There's a chance that they might just write it off if it looks like getting too messy or expensive to chase.

If the DWP persists then contact your MP & ask him / her to intervene.

That's interesting experience. In this case I think the claimant certainly knew that an overpayment was being made but the landlord couldn't have. Our experience, admittedly only with London Councils, is that they tend to accept that we don't know when an overpayment is being made and if we don't prevail with the initial Housing Benefit Officer we usually do on their appeals process. It may also be that we are diligent in notifying the councils when we know that a tenant has left. Of course it's accepted that everyone's experience is different.

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That's interesting experience. In this case I think the claimant certainly knew that an overpayment was being made but the landlord couldn't have. Our experience, admittedly only with London Councils, is that they tend to accept that we don't know when an overpayment is being made and if we don't prevail with the initial Housing Benefit Officer we usually do on their appeals process. It may also be that we are diligent in notifying the councils when we know that a tenant has left. Of course it's accepted that everyone's experience is different.

The DWP's position focuses on what the claimant knows & although the landlord may ultimately end up with the money, the landlord isn't the claimant so that's why they try to recoup the overpayment. It's good to see that you already heed my advice & exhaust all possible avenues rather than pay up at the first demand for payment.

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Just seen the post where you've got the son out of your property which I assume is now back under your possession but the following may still be of interest to others.

I'm sure that there's a section in the Housing Act that allows for any individual to have only one AST at any one time & when I get time I'll try to find the number of the section that covers this.

So if this is correct & the council have stopped paying housing benefit on the basis that he's got another tenancy then he may not have an AST for your property & the AST eviction process may not apply to you.

The Act does allow for a tenant to live away from a property for a while provided that they can demonstrate that they intend to return by leaving personal possessions etc.

You need to run this one past an eviction specialist & not a' jack-of-all-trades' solicitor.

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The DWP's position focuses on what the claimant knows & although the landlord may ultimately end up with the money, the landlord isn't the claimant so that's why they try to recoup the overpayment. It's good to see that you already heed my advice & exhaust all possible avenues rather than pay up at the first demand for payment.

© in a case where an overpayment arose in consequence of an official error

where the claimant, or a person acting on the claimant's behalf, or any person

to whom the payment was paid, or any person acting on their behalf, could

reasonably have been expected, at the time of receipt of the payment or of

any notice relating to that payment, to realise that it was an overpayment,

the overpayment is only recoverable from any such person instead of, if

different, the person to whom the payment was made.

This is the regulation that seems to prevail. I'm not sure why you are referring to the DWP. At the moment the administration of HB is entirely within the Local Authority. It's the Council that decide an overpayment has been made and they that take their action to recover it. The point is that the Council do not attempt to recover, quite properly, an overpayment to a landlord where the landlord was unaware that the overpayment was an overpayment at the point of receiving it. I have enought criticism of the system but in this regard I think the process is quite fair and proper. After the 2006 update in the regulations the Council's penalties increased for irrecoverable overpayments.

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Just seen the post where you've got the son out of your property which I assume is now back under your possession but the following may still be of interest to others.

I'm sure that there's a section in the Housing Act that allows for any individual to have only one AST at any one time & when I get time I'll try to find the number of the section that covers this.

So if this is correct & the council have stopped paying housing benefit on the basis that he's got another tenancy then he may not have an AST for your property & the AST eviction process may not apply to you.

The Act does allow for a tenant to live away from a property for a while provided that they can demonstrate that they intend to return by leaving personal possessions etc.

You need to run this one past an eviction specialist & not a' jack-of-all-trades' solicitor.

Yes but that's not the point. We're talking about an overpayment that is an overpayment not whether it was an overpayment in the first place. It's an overpayment because it shouldn't have been paid. Otherwise it would just be a payment. The point is whether it is a recoverable overpayment or not. If the landlord, at the point of receiving the overpayment, did not know that it was an overpayment then it's not recoverable.

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Yes but that's not the point. We're talking about an overpayment that is an overpayment not whether it was an overpayment in the first place. It's an overpayment because it shouldn't have been paid. Otherwise it would just be a payment. The point is whether it is a recoverable overpayment or not. If the landlord, at the point of receiving the overpayment, did not know that it was an overpayment then it's not recoverable.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just seen the post where you've got the son out of your property which I assume is now back under your possession but the following may still be of interest to others.

I'm sure that there's a section in the Housing Act that allows for any individual to have only one AST at any one time & when I get time I'll try to find the number of the section that covers this.

So if this is correct & the council have stopped paying housing benefit on the basis that he's got another tenancy then he may not have an AST for your property & the AST eviction process may not apply to you.

The Act does allow for a tenant to live away from a property for a while provided that they can demonstrate that they intend to return by leaving personal possessions etc.

You need to run this one past an eviction specialist & not a' jack-of-all-trades' solicitor.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This post wasn't anything to do with the overpayment, it was just a comment about my reading somewhere in the Act that a tenant couldn't have more that one AST at any one time.

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© in a case where an overpayment arose in consequence of an official error

where the claimant, or a person acting on the claimant's behalf, or any person

to whom the payment was paid, or any person acting on their behalf, could

reasonably have been expected, at the time of receipt of the payment or of

any notice relating to that payment, to realise that it was an overpayment,

the overpayment is only recoverable from any such person instead of, if

different, the person to whom the payment was made.

This is the regulation that seems to prevail. I'm not sure why you are referring to the DWP. At the moment the administration of HB is entirely within the Local Authority. It's the Council that decide an overpayment has been made and they that take their action to recover it. The point is that the Council do not attempt to recover, quite properly, an overpayment to a landlord where the landlord was unaware that the overpayment was an overpayment at the point of receiving it. I have enought criticism of the system but in this regard I think the process is quite fair and proper. After the 2006 update in the regulations the Council's penalties increased for irrecoverable overpayments.

The DWP give instructions to councils about HB matters such as how to assess HB & what recovery action to take.

Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit

General Information Bulletin

Department for Work and Pensions, 1st Floor, Caxton House, Tothill Street, London SW1 9NA

http://www.dwp.gov.u...ousing-benefit/

However I don't really want to get pedantic about who does what with HB, I merely wanted to advise members that an overpayment such as this may still try to be recovered by the local council & although you've had success at tribunals this does not mean that everyone will. Although the landlord ends up with the HB money is does not automatically mean that the landlord is the person to whom the HB was paid.

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