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Property management agency signed off on shoddy repair


tswip

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I've just taken back possession of my house after 11 years of rental through a property management agency. While there's a fair bit of cleaning, gardening, and niggling repair outstanding, overall the tenants have looked after the place reasonably well (nobody has daubed the walls with graffitti or dismantled car engines on the lounge floor).

I do have a problem, though, with the quality of some of the workmanship for repairs done by contractors employed by the property management agency during my absence. Early repairs seem well enough done, but in particular, the agency signed off just a couple of months ago on a bathroom refit that is plainly and simply neither completed (bare floorboards, tiling unfinished, etc), nor done to anything approaching an acceptable standard (barely one tile level with its neighbour).

On the unfinished parts, the property management agency accepted the tenants stating that they would finish the job with a coat of paint -- it'd take more than that, and tenants should not (have to) finish a repair; I certainly wouldn't have when I was a tenant -- that's what tenants pay rent for, after all! I suspect that the property managers either did not check the work at all or only extremely superficially, and that the contractor believed he could get away with a poor job for an absentee landlord who (he thought) would either never see the work, or see it too late to do anything about it.

At the moment, I'm caught between finger-pointing, with the property management agency pointing at the contractor, the contractor pointing at the sub-contracted tiler and flooring chap, the tiler being incommunicado, and the floor layer (probably somewhat correctly) noting that you can't fix a bad bathroom fit with a bit of flooring. In the meantime, independent assessments by two other bathroom contractors (one sent to visit me by the main contractor responsible for the current poor refit himself!) both indicated that the work needed to be, in essence, redone.

The main question I have here is, who among these parties should we be chasing for redress, and using what methods? I'm inclined towards the property management agency, who should not have signed off on and paid for an incomplete and botched job. This is based on the fact that my contract is with them, and they are acting as my agent.

They don't appear to be members of ARLA, so any leverage will have to be through small claims or perhaps trading standards(?). I'm prepared to give it a go, however. What is the best way to communicate with them at this stage? Would certified letters giving required actions and deadlines set a suitable tone of seriousness?

In addition, there are a couple of things missing from the house (total around £200), and the property management agency has not yet (four weeks) been able to produce a copy of the original inventory, nor tried to explain or address the loss (they keep mumbling about needing to contact the former tenants, of which there are only two, but no action to date). In the meantime, my papers and other stuff are still in transit back to the UK, so I can't search for any copy I may have had.

What requirements do property management agencies have to retain property inventories? At one point they mentioned re-doing it on change of tenancy, which seems to fly in the face of whole point of an inventory, to ensure that stuff remains even though tenants change.

So far I should mention that the property management agency are not yet antagonistic or aggressive, and generally being unhelpful (perhaps no surprise, since now the house is no longer rented they receive no further income from me). They just keep on shrugging off requests for action, so it looks like it's time to move from offhand email exhange to something more concrete.

Anyone seen these types of problems before with their property management agency, and have any advice on how to approach them? Thanks.

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I would try to get LA to take full responsibility as they should not have signed off or paid for incomplete or shoddy works....If they do not co operate then put a debt collector on their case for reimbursement of funds to sort problems ..

Contract of works is between LA and contractor NOT you ........

The Rodent

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You would have to show negligence by your LA to stand any chance of a claim being successful, which it doesn't appear to have been. They don't sign off a contractors work and under laws of agency were effectively acting as you nor are they responsible for the standard of contracted work, that lies with the contracted company. Any arrangement the contractor had with sub-contractors is between them only. I would advise the LA that you wish them to persue completion of the work to an acceptable standard. If they don't, I would make a claim against contractor for sub-standard work and possibly against the agent for compensation. On a point of detail, the agent should possibly have checked the work during the next check or reported by the tenant at the time.

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Work should have been checked by the LA on completion, monies should then only have been paid to said contractor when the agent was happy that the work requested was up to scratch.

They obviously didn't check and just paid the contractor.

This is unacceptable and I'd be shouting from the rooftops.

Agent is responsible as far as I can see.

He organised the works, set out to the contractor what was required, and then paid him for shoddy work.

Ask for a full refund from the agent and promise to reimburse him once the job is completed satisfactorily. Can't see him giving this up lightly so a DC letter may be the next best approach.

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Agents don't check each & every repair done by contractors. They should however have written terms of business with the contractor specifying minimum acceptable standards. The agent is not responsible for the standard of the repair, they don't have the wide range of specific specialist skills, knowledge, responsibility or time for this to cover every eventuality. To think they do would be incorrect. However, they do have a duty to the landlord to sort issues with the contractor.

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I disagree GPEL,

Personally I do check EVERY piece of work/repairs that I contract out.

If the job was a refurb as this bathroom was, and I quote, "bathroom refit that is plainly and simply neither completed (bare floorboards, tiling unfinished, etc), nor done to anything approaching an acceptable standard (barely one tile level with its neighbour)" it wouldn't take a genius to realise that the works weren't carried to specific instructions. Therefore the contractor would not have been paid by me until I was happy.

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If LA is to provide manangement service, to include identification of works ...instruction of contractor and payment thereafter,, then he has a duty to perform to an acceptable standard on the above ......if not then he is guilty of both incompetence and negligence ............I would not put up with this and take the agent to task in no uncertain terms ...

The Rodent (agreeing with J4L ...for a change!)

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Established agents have neither the time, resources nor contractual obligation to check each and every repair anymore than they supervise each and every repair when being attended to. Agents should have a number of trusted contractors on their books, who understand the levels required. If identified that a job wasn't done properly, at whatever point, the contractual and legal obligation to complete the work is the tradesmans and its the agents job to ensure they do this.

It's a regular occurence for work to get paid for without being checked by the agent. This in itself isn't the problem. In this example above, I strongly suspect there's more to this problem that was avoidable. For example, why wasn't it identified at the end of tenancy check, why didn't the tenant report work of a sub-standard level, what was the arrangement and understanding between agent and contractor. To pin it all on the agent is to misunderstand law of agency, third party liability, contractual obligations and terms of business, in my opinion. The agent has no responsibility for the level of the contractors performance anymore than they are responsible for the performance of the tenant. They do have a responsibility to try and get it put right now it's been identified.

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"Established agents have neither the time, resources"

Rubbish!!

this is part of the management service and the buck stops with the agent on this one.

And . . . . . . . .Simon?? Yup that's a first mate!!!

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Not rubbish I'm afraid, as you will realize when established. You are unlikely to go out and personallly check every repair, minor or otherwise, prior to payment nor will your staff. The buck stops with the agent to chase the contractor, not for the standard of the repair.

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GPEL?

When do I know when i'm established then??

You got any numbers of managed properties that is an indicator of establishment?

Can't wait for this answer!! :lol:

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Rodent agreed - though I wouldn't class a bathroom refurb as a repair and would expect the agent to check the standard of completed work but there should have been prior dialogue between LL and agent.

J4L - Matter of opinion and subjective. In mine it's an agent with a good reputation that's been going at least 3 to 5 years with about 100+ managed properties on their books. This based on most businesses that fail do so within 2 years, retrospective legislation for professions generally accepts that experience of 3 to 5 years is enough not to have to take further training if legislation changes, confidence in the agent not folding, time for word of mouth referals to outweigh any other form of marketing, time taken to gain general experience of differing scenarios if not the specifics, fully loaded office, trained staff and so on. All pretty obvious stuff really. You are still clearly inexperienced in this field. However, at least now some of your posts seem more credible.

I doubt you or your staff will physically visit each property after each repair, minor or otherwise, before paying the bill. If you do, good for you.

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I'm with Simon on this one,

This is not just a gas cert or fixing a small leak we are talking a major refit of a bathroom!!

I have another eg here for whomever would like to read it.

LL approaches me with a 'potential' house purchase in December

He wants MY opinion on what I feel needs doing and to know if my subs can carry out the works, how much, and how long it's gonna take.

We arrange a meet with my painter & decorator, the plumber, the electrician, and the carpet shop (to measure) over a few days. Remember HE is with me on these meetings, I just pulled it all together and arranged it.

I give my advice, the tradesmen give their prices and he agrees on the price.

He bought the house, picked the keys up and dropped them to me. Works were completed within 2 weeks, which were some rewiring, fully painted throughout (3 bedroom house) new boiler fitted, new doors throughout, and flooring throughout.

I visited the property at LEAST twice a day for the fortnight to oversee the works, the LL visited just 3 times throughout. I called the LL every day to keep him in the loop as to the progress, not just on the works but also on how finding him a tenant was going.

Two weeks later, all works completed, Landlord happy, tenant moved in the day after!!

How much did I charge the LL for this??

Nothing, zero, Zilch!!!

I was quite happy to take this property on, get the works done and then manage it for a special offer price of 3 months FREE, then 3 months at 5%, and then onto our standard rate of 7.5%.

Work out my time, my petrol and my telephone calls and see if anyone here would have the done the same! I doubt it!

But hey that was a few months ago now, tenant is in and paying their rent on time and LL gets his money within a few hours of me receiving (or seeing it Simon haha) in my account.

And guess what??

I'm smack bang in the middle of his next project which is EXACTLY the same as the last one.

All works completed, tenant found, LL wants to go and clean up inside and the new Tenant is moving in this weekend!!

Again I have kept an eye on the progress, called the LL each day (In spain this time, cos he's taking a break)

LL landed last night in London, was going home for a few hours sleep and is calling here in about an hour to pick up the keys so he can go and have a look at the house.

Charges for this one?? Nothing!!

I'm happy to project manage a job throughout it's infancy stages so I can secure the management thereafter.

Some may call me stupid but I 'know' business and I know what it takes to be successful and that's what I do!

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Very good. What you're doing is running a bolt-on project management business, probably because you have the time to do so. If it works continually great but there are many pitfalls, not least when you've spent hours on a particuler task, for free, for the owner to then decide they don't want to go with you afterall. But you know business. No risk no glory I suppose.

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"J4L - Matter of opinion and subjective. In mine it's an agent with a good reputation that's been going at least 3 to 5 years with about 100+ properties on their books. This based on most businesses that fail do so within 2 years, retrospective legislation for professions generally accepts that experience of 3 to 5 years is enough not to have to take further training if legislation changes, confidence in the agent not folding, time for word of mouth referals to outweigh any other form of marketing, time taken to gain general experience of differing scenarios if not the specifics, fully loaded office, trained staff and so on. All pretty obvious stuff really. You are still clearly inexperienced in this field. However, at least now some of your posts seem more credible.

I doubt you or your staff will physically visit each property after each repair, minor or otherwise, before paying the bill. If you do, good for you. "

Haha, well I don't know what to say!!!

Actually I do,

100+ properties?? Well we passed that figure a while ago!!

3 to 5 years?? No not yet only in our 2nd year but as I've suggested, I know business ,and this is not a problem for some LL's who once they speak to me realise I'm pretty switched on, sometimes even MORE than they are.

Word of mouth referals do outweigh any other form of marketing in fact we've cut our local rag advertising in half, don't advertise on rightmove etc etc and growth has not changed for us.

time taken to gain general experience of differing scenarios if not the specifics This has tickled me! I've gained MUCH general experience taking over properties from LL's who have placed their investments with much larger companies that have made a hash of their job. And trust me I'm not talking one or two here we are into double figures and increasing by the DAY!!!

Yes we have a fully loaded office and staff?? Just the 2 of us!!!

I agree when I came on here I WAS inexperienced but not anymore. I'm learning EVERY day and unlike other companies I don't sit back on my laurels and think I know it all and just take the money and expect to do nothing for it.

You pay for MANAGEMENT and that's exactly what you get.

A Landlord of mine the other day called me RONSEAL, at first I looked at him bemused as I had no idea what he was getting at.

You do exactly as you say on the tin, he said!!

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Very good. What you're doing is running a bolt-on project management business, probably because you have the time to do so. If it works continually great but there are many pitfalls, not least when you've spent hours on a particuler task, for free, for the owner to then decide they don't want to go with you afterall. But you know business. No risk no glory I suppose.

It's not a 'bolt-on' project management business it's what I offer as a management package if people want to tap into my knowledge and experience (of doing this before).

Do I have the time?? Not really but I make it!!

We work 24 hours a day 7 days a week and 365 days a year!

To run a successful business you need commitment, I have it!

I was talking to an agent the other day in an area that we are just breaking into, she told me they'd been trading for 4 years and managed 70 properties. My face was a picture!! And my first thoughts?? How long before we take those off you!! haha.

I'm just going to check my records and see how many LL's have a) used me (as suggested above) :lol: given me notice that they don't wish to use my services any longer.

Hold on . . . . .

That's right NONE, NEVER, NOT ONE!! Infact they are telling all their other LL friends about me and they are transferring at a steady rate.

And if they ever do?? Well hey ho! The odd one or two won't put me out of business!

"No risk no glory I suppose."

Absolutely Correct, that's business!!

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I don't understand your question?

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To follow on from my question to J4L, I suspect there was no recognized training prior to opening, which is all too often the problem. If you're not trained you don't know what you don't know (comment not aimed at anyone specific) or how to correctly apply what you do know, which means there is increased likelihood of poor service etc.

The recent Carsberg report makes a number of recommendations to improve service levels from letting agents, amongst which is one to ensure all agents are regulated, trained & suitably qualified before opening start-ups. Why would that be then? It's just too easy for any T,D or H to set up and spout that he/she'll provide a professional service, at cheap prices and then fail to deliver. Being regulated and trained doesn't mean there won't be problems but it goes a long way to reducing them.

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We have attended several training courses and was affiliated with a local estate agent who has 25 years experience.

Regulation, Training, Suitably qualified is absolutely fine as long as these regulated bodies carry out their inspections and are hard on LA who do not meet their standards.

I would welcome ANY regulated body to come and view my practise, paperwork, standards etc as long as they ensure that they are doing the same for every agent locally.

Infact I would LOVE them to do this because I'd be the only agent left cos they'd HAVE to close everybody else down. haha.

And I don't say this lightly, I have evidence of malpractise of nearly every other agent here so let's do it.

We are registered with the local council and various schemes who infact give our number out to prospective tenants and tell them to call us as we do the job properly.

Bring it on I say!!!!

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Back to the question, not the self promotion. What training courses did you attend before opening up the operation that enabled you to become a letting agent who knows the subject and, while we're at it, what courses have you done since that were appropriate and who with? Straight forward question.

By the way, you are the one who currently has the option to become regulated. Not bring it on but volunteering. Subscribe to an approved code of practise, bonded client account, regular audits of client account by Chartered Accountant, that sort of thing.

Of even more interest is the franchising opportunities you're now offering. How much is it? Are you affiliated to the BFA? How long are the courses and who gives them? What qualifications do the instructors have etc etc. Very impressive. A 100+ fully managed property portfolio, visiting every property to check every repair and giving free project management services, you're also a franchisor offering a top of the range business opportunity and all done by 2 people. If it looks like BS and smells like BS, chances are it's...!

Harsh but if you come on here with the big I Am, expect to be questioned.

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You see the problem we have here is I don't need to explain to anyone what courses I have been on or what experience I have as we are not regulated at the moment.

If you were a Landlord that came to me and said "are you a member of ARLA and I said no YOU could make the decision whether to use me or not, your choice!

You could also ask me what percentage of rentals do I collect on time and I'd say 98% and again you could make the decision whether to use me or not.

You could then ask me about my paperwork, my standards, my charges etc etc and AGAIN you could make your own decisions.

It doesn't matter about regulation, experience because it's not mandatory. But this doesn't matter because as you state T, D or H can set up as a LA without any qualifications, experience or anything.

The choice is with the Landlord at present and that's for you to decide!

My history and my knowledge of business and my proactive demeanour sells me MUCH more than a bl***y ARLA subscription!!! I have 'lost' 1, ONE instruction because of this!!

My (affiliated) Estate agent had a funny story for me the other day. He'd been asked to value a house and was JUST about to be instructed to sell it when the vendor asked "do you advertise on Rightmove" He said no and the instruction was given to another local agent that does but is s**t!!! Haha. (p.s. HOUSE STILL NOT SOLD)

Just because someone subscribes to regulation like ARLA doesn't necessarily mean that they know what they are doing, or they are the best person to let out your property it just means that you can complain to someone if they don't perform as you would like. Do they guarantee that you will get your money back off the agent when/if they screw you over? Does it mean that they will actively market your property when it's empty? Does it mean that they'll chase rents that are late? Does it mean that they WON'T charge 'hidden'extras for signing tenants into new agreements, I could go on all night!!!

No it doesn't guarantee anything.

I am a qualified nurse, a registered childminder and am regulated by both! Proper regulation I mean, not just "subscribe to us" and you can tell everyone that you are, so I KNOW about regulation and trust me LA (for what we do) don't NEED to be regulated unless the body does it PROPERLY. I know estate agents (locally) that are not members of a regulated body and they are good at their job and I know agents that are members of ARLA and the like and are c**p so what does it mean?

Regulation in this industry is b******s, It's not manageable (by supposed bodies) and this is why it's not Mandatory.

When it is, I will, and with pleasure, subscribe if I NEED to!!!!

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