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tenant from hell-please help!


jules44

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Hello,

I am hoping that I someone will be able to advise me.

I have been renting my property for the first time for 1 year due to problems throuhout the tennancy(late rent, fitting gas/electric meters & moving her family in without my permission) and I hve had a baby and my current property is not big enough for my family, i deceided to give my tennant notice to leave in June the tenancy agreement runs out next week.

My tenant who is on HB and is refusing to leave, also the local council have advised her to stay. I delivered a letter advising her that the rent will be increased and she gave me a mouthful of abuse, this followed with the council serving me papers for harrassment and illigal eviction and a visit from the police informing me that she had made a complaint about me!

I have the papers from court to apply for a possession order (accelerated) but due to inexperience im not sure of the legal aspect of this.

I have been told by CAB that I should of given 2 months notice not 3 and that I will now have to serve another 2 months notice before I can apply for the possession order is this correct?

I am so stressed out with all this, i thought that giving 3 months notice would give her enough time to find another property and that she would leave when the tenancy ended, as this is not the case I think I should of maybe done things different.

I hope someone can help, the forms for a possession order are also complicated, would it be best to get a solicitor to deal with these?

Please help

Jx

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The CAB are wrong and you have to give at least 2 months notice so your notice is sufficient.

harrassment and illigal eviction and a visit from the police

I can't see from your information that you have harrassed this tenant or attempted illegal eviction, what did the police say?

Accelerated possession? On what grounds are you going to use?

How much did you attempt to increase the rent by?

We need some more information here I think Jules

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The CAB are wrong and you have to give at least 2 months notice so your notice is sufficient.

harrassment and illigal eviction and a visit from the police

I can't see from your information that you have harrassed this tenant or attempted illegal eviction, what did the police say?

Accelerated possession? On what grounds are you going to use?

How much did you attempt to increase the rent by?

We need some more information here I think Jules

Hi and thanks for your reply,

The police just warned me to stay away from my house, and that they have to investigate any complaint but would take no further action.

i am just going through the forms for the accelerated possession order, the courts advised me to do this as i am not claiming any un paid rent and it asks when the notice expires is this when the tenancy agreement finishes?

AS for the grounds as far as i can see it doesn't ask for which grounds just asks for the tenancy agreement and the notice to leave but there is a part for additional info which i was going to say about the problems as it says the judge will take it into consideration.

does that answer your question? im sorry i am new to all this. shoul;d i be stating on what grounds i want the possession order.

i have doubled the rent.

thank you for your response

j x

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i have doubled the rent.

j x

I don't know about the rest of the things sorry but a 100% increase on rent seems pretty steep...aren't there guidelines for a certain amount one can increase the rent by...? I'm not sure what it is but I'm sure someone here will respond 20%? I've only increased the rent by 2% on mine as I had a good tenant, needed an increase yet at same time didn't want to lose them.

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Opps! I read on another site that I can charge what I like. She won't pay it anyway so im concentrating on completing the possession order forms that is another headache.

I seem to get conflicting advice on all the steps of gaining a possession order, has anyone found a easy step by step guide?

thanks again for your input, you must be one of the lucky ones who has a 'good' tenant.

j x

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Doubled the Rent!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok THAT IS HARASSMENT!!!

You can realistically increase rent by around 5% per year without much comeback but doubling rent is not the way to evict tenants. They can take the case to a rent assessment committee and you'll be for it.

Police are absolutely correct, constant phoning, texting or calling at the property can be construed as harassment so refrain from any of this

when the notice expires This has to be 2 weeks from the day of service of such notice.

Personally i'd try and avoid court here and 'do a deal' with the Tenant to leave early, you've got in a bit of a pickle with this by the looks of it and need a quick exit, dealing may be the cheapest way out for you.

Effectively they should go as and when the fixed term runs out but it appears they aren't going to,

try some cash in hand to go quietly, a promise of a full refund of deposit etc, but whatever you do get your agreement signed!

Failing all this get Simon to give you a number for his D/C because these T's ARE gonna end up owing you money once you go down the same (but proper) route again and this 'threat' of the D/C may dissuade them to continue.

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Thanks for the reply.

My tenant won't leave and the local council have told her to stay. The council have hounded me for a record of how the tenancy went as i dont think they wont to re-house her. my local MP is looking into their conduct.

I have only visited the property once in 1 year so i really don't see how i have harassed her?

I am not going to offer money to leave as putting all the problems aside she has totally wrecked my property so yet again this is going to cost me money.plus i dont see why i should give someone money when they have caused me so many problems, she is claiming hb and her brother and his family are living there.

My only option is to go through the accelerated possession order and hope for the best.

The law seems to side with the tenant all the way, i just want my house back and a quiet life!

Im new to the boards so who is Simon?

thanks again

J x

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Hello,

I am hoping that I someone will be able to advise me.

I have been renting my property for the first time for 1 year due to problems throuhout the tennancy(late rent, fitting gas/electric meters & moving her family in without my permission) and I hve had a baby and my current property is not big enough for my family, i deceided to give my tennant notice to leave in June the tenancy agreement runs out next week.

My tenant who is on HB and is refusing to leave, also the local council have advised her to stay. I delivered a letter advising her that the rent will be increased and she gave me a mouthful of abuse, this followed with the council serving me papers for harrassment and illigal eviction and a visit from the police informing me that she had made a complaint about me!

I have the papers from court to apply for a possession order (accelerated) but due to inexperience im not sure of the legal aspect of this.

I have been told by CAB that I should of given 2 months notice not 3 and that I will now have to serve another 2 months notice before I can apply for the possession order is this correct?

I am so stressed out with all this, i thought that giving 3 months notice would give her enough time to find another property and that she would leave when the tenancy ended, as this is not the case I think I should of maybe done things different.

I hope someone can help, the forms for a possession order are also complicated, would it be best to get a solicitor to deal with these?

Please help

Jx

Hi Jules

You have got yourself a messy one here !

Ok so you served notice......3 mths instead of 2 ...not a problem ......2 is just minimum that you can serve ...

Doubling rent is a NO NO ....by agreement you can raise it to any level you both agree to ,but to enforce you will only be able to go around 5% (assumming you weren't way below fair rent to start with !)

On S21 court proceedures i cannot really advise as i have never issued one (TRENNERS will i'm sure advise shortlyon this !) ...i ALWAYS negotiate direct with T to get problems sorted ....

If this T is on HB .... for council to rehouse they have to be evicted to make them "homeless" council is then obliged to rehouse them .....Council will not help as they will tell T to stay put until eviction order is served ....leaving you with little choice but to follow thru with court action .....this whole system is a joke but unfortunately there is no real way i can see around this one ....court will grant on a S21 served correctly and issue eviction order ...but if they refuse to go then you will have to go back to court to get bailiffs to evict.

As for Debt collectors ...at the moment it would appear that they dont owe you any money ...Is HB paying full rent ? or is T topping up ?

A possible solution maybe negotiable ............IF T is being paid HB direct to T and THEN T paying you ...(?) ...

IF SO IS HB aware that she has family living there ...if not then this will screw her housing claim mighty quick ...leaving her with no money to pay rent ? The threat of this puts you in a strong position to negotiate vacation and possible use of threat of Debt Collector plus fees ...?

This is playing hardball ..but if the cap fits .....

IF however HB is being paid direct to you then do not even think about this as HB will chase you for "incorrect payment"

Please advise futher details...

Simon

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Hi Jules,

I'm not surprised that your tenant won''t leave (because they won't have anywhere to live) and I'm not surprised that the Council have advised them to stay (because they haven't got any spare houses either).

So - in my opinion - deals are pointless (unless you are proposing to pay 1 month rent in advance and 1 month deposit to the new landlord so that they can easily leave).

You MUST follow the Accelerated Possession Procedure and, given your inexperience, I would strongly suggest that you engage the services of a local solicitor NOW. Every day that your tenant remains in your property is another day that you are probably losing rent. The solicitors fee (for handling possession procedure) is insignificant when you consider the rent you are currently losing.

The Accelerated Possession Procedure will take you about 28 days to get an eviction notice from a Court of Law. Get the solicitor to complete the N5B form and then submit it to the court (any pay the £150 fee).

Once you have the eviction order you will need to appoint the Court Bailiff to "help the tenant out of the property" - this will cost about £95 - but you need to BOOK EARLY. The Court Baliffs can, sometimes, have a 6 week waiting list.

I think you have harrassed your tenant - but trying to double the rent to force them to leave - and that was a mistake. Don't make any more mistakes - emply the services of a solicitor tomorrow.

Good luck,

Mark

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Hi

thanks all for your advice.

It looks as if I have made a mistake with putting the rent up, im a busy working mum with a young baby and its so difficult to manage everything, not an excuse i know.

The T tops up her HB and the rest is paid direct into my account from HB, but the council are aware of her family living with her as my local MP who has been very helpful and has written to the council because of all the problems included the fact that her family are living there too, i hope this doesnt now cause me more problems?

I have filled in form N5B and plan to deliver it to the courts on Thursday, If the judge doesn't award me the possession order then i will employ a solicitor, i have already been quoted £500 to see it through courts, but unfortunately i don't have the funds so will have to obtain a loan from my parents.

I admit ive made mistakes but im a tax payer working hard while raising a young baby, she has a child claims benefits has never worked but gets everything done for her, while they only way i get anything done is by paying out,it just seems all wrong......

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Hi Jules

Under the circumstances ..you really have no choice but to do exactly what Mark says (not often i agree with Mark !!!.... but on this occasion i can see no other way ..)

2 Q's

1 Is the top up rent being paid ?

2 Exactly what has your local MP managed to do for you ?

As for your comment "it just seems so wrong" .....I think you will find the vast majority of LL completely agree with you as any LL in this position is almost certain to lose a substantial amount of money....which i believe IS wrong...

Yeh sure you can take them to small claims court or put a Debt Collector on the case ..but this all takes time and effort=more money ...but unfortunately this particular type of T is not in a financial position to repay debt ....and the system as is allows that debt to become unmanageable for T and unbearable for a lot of LL such as yourself ............I personally believe it is high time something positive and constructive is done about it ..

As we speak CAB and shelter are actually protesting that the system is not tight enough and are looking at trying to stop S21 being used to remove T where repairs are required and LL uses S21 rather than do repairs.......In your case if they have wrecked the prop this would mean that because they have wrecked the prop .......you would not be able to evict and be forced to repair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if they get any where with this T are going to be encouraged to wreck prop which in turn will slow up if not stop eviction process ......A1 inventories are essential to prove willfull damage by T and not LL responsibility...........

It would appear that the strongest organisations to bring about Law change in this arena are CAB and SHELTER so i propose that we all start ringing them for advice with every little problem we have...this is the only possible way we can get them to see a balanced picture ......as their opinions are based on "extensive research" ie no of calls and nature of problems ..it is now down to LL collectively to balance and seek redress thru them ....a one man mission will have no overall impact whatsoever ....

It is called "Citizens Advice Bureau" we are, are we not, "CITIZENS...?"

Simon

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Hi I would urge caution as if your tenant has taken in lodgers or any one else who is not on tenancy agreement and not been put on the housing benifit claim form this includes any members of his family, and the housing benifit is being paid direct to you . the couincil will look into this and will claim back any money found that the tenant was not entitled to FROM YOU as they paid it direct to you . IE if your tenant is receiving any money from his lodgers if any of them have savings or are working etc . They may treat this as a fraudulent claim and wil demand the money back from you . You then have to take tenant to court for him to settle the rent owed which is very unlikely that they have . this is quite a common situation where tenants sub let. I would make housing benifit go to tenant and then tenant pays you this way any money claimed back is from the tenant and not you as they received the housing benifit. once housing benifits become aware of the circumstances they will stop payments and investigae. If you were aware of this situation and took the housing benifit payments this could be quite serious

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Oh my god this is just getting worse.

The rent has been so far, she pays her bit every 2 weeks and is due again tomorrow, HB is paid monthly so is due in 2 weeks.

My MP has written to the local council as he was outraged that;

1 the council had approached me asking me to do a letter about any problems that i had with the tenant, he said they shouldn't have approached me?

2 the fact that they were advising her to remain in my property forcing me to pay for eviction before they will re-house her.

I was honest (wish i hadn't now) and told him that my tenants brother had informed me he was living there, Im so worried now that i may be in trouble for raising the rent, plus that i may be responsible for paying back the Hb because she sub letted, when is this nightmare going to end?

I can see that employing a solicitor would be best, but i only have £5oo pound to cover everything then i am in real danger of not meeting my mortgage payments, does anyone know what the chances are and the possible outcome of this situation as if im going to be facing fines and have to pay back Hb, plus the costs involved with the possession order and possible bailiff charges, although i have only been informed that someone else was living there 2 weeks ago, i am going to have to use the money for that,.

I just don't know what to do, i was awake all night last night worrying.

Thanks all for your help and advice, i wish i had found this site months ago.

j x

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It sounds like she is Blagging HB which is not good...

Depending on

1 your strength of character

2 tenants attitude

3 tenants ability to move somewhere else

You could threaten to "call" HB and inform them that others are living at prop (this is actually your duty as a LL )

this will have the effect of HB being stopped immediately whilst they investigate ...which usually takes several months ....so they wont be able to pay the rent and will be in serious trouble ...you however will be complying with the law...

Now you need to tell T that if this happens HB will be looking for refund of HB claimed (almost certainly from you the LL) Personally this has only happend once and i refused to pay it and pointed them in a choice of 2 directions ...the T or the Mortgage co .....and heard no more about it ...YET!!)

Inform T that clearly they will then owe you that money plus any further rent accrued whilst they are still at prop ...this will then be passed to a DC if not paid within 7 days and 15% collection costs plus interest plus any othe "collection" fees they cause DC will be payable by T ....also once passed to DC you wil have little or NO control over the case....

I would work all the figs out to illustrate how serious this is about to get for them !!

THEN OFFER THE EASY WAY OUT ............

Alternatively if they can see their way to vacating the prop within 7 days and paying for damages as they leave then none of the above needs to happen ................

My guess is that they will deny others living at prop .........but HB will still probably stop pymts whilst they investigate ....allowing you to implement the above.....

OR

you can wait and go to court ...which will take time and will cost you .....

Speak to MP's office and get them to send you a copy of letter sent to HB to "keep in the loop" ..Th involvement of an MP CAN have incredible effects ...sometimes..!!

Keep us updated!

S

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Hi Jules,

Over the last 12 months the law has changed.

The Housing Benefit office will only pursue the landlord for any overpayment of HB if the landlord KNOWINGLY continued to receive the HB money when the landlord KNEW that the tenant's circumstances may have changed. With every HB application you should receive a "change of circumstances" form which you should complete and return if you are aware of anything different (eg: the brother has moved in).

My concern (for you) through all this is that if you notify the benefit office of the change of circumstances they will suspend the HB claim to investigate and, as Simon says, the investigation might take weeks or months or it might never be resolved. It can only be resolved and unsuspended when the TENANT answers all the questions to the HB's office satisfaction.

No answers = no HB assessment = no HB = no rent. Also - when you serve an N5B form on the tenant - they might stop paying their top-up as well.

So - don't panic ! The most important thing, right now, is to get your property back and get the tenant out. Engaging with a solicitor is pretty much your only option.

You can claim the solicitor / court costs on the N5B form as well although getting possession needs to be priority. You can chase them for the money owed later.

Good luck - my suggestion is to go to the solictor TOMORROW,

Mark

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Thanks guys,

i feel little more positive now, my Mp has included into his letter that my T had someone living with them so Hb are aware. I am going to chase my Mp tomorrow as my first course of action to see if he has gained any info and as you advise i will ask for a copy of his letter.

i'll keep you updated on this tomorrow.

Another question-can i legally use her deposit to pay the £150 costs to gain a possession order, or is that as well protected.

I don't wanna get myself into anymore bother with her deposit!

I really appreciate all your comments, i have found all this so stressful but it helps letting off a bit of steam on here, so cheers guys.

J xx

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HI,

I just thought that i would add an update....

Despite trying to contact my mp i have not received a reply? i have also spoken to the council and they can't advise if she has been ofered a council house, due to the data protection act.

So i plan to put in the papers to gain a possession order(accelerated) into court tomorrow.

After reading another thread about S21 is this the same as notice to leave? i wrote to my T informing her that i would not be renewing the tenancy agreement-is this the same as the S21???

thanks in advance

Jules xxx

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HI,

I just thought that i would add an update....

Despite trying to contact my mp i have not received a reply? i have also spoken to the council and they can't advise if she has been ofered a council house, due to the data protection act.

So i plan to put in the papers to gain a possession order(accelerated) into court tomorrow.

After reading another thread about S21 is this the same as notice to leave? i wrote to my T informing her that i would not be renewing the tenancy agreement-is this the same as the S21???or should i have issued this as well???

thanks in advance

Jules xxx

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Hi

I go to court several times a year to evict tenants and do all the court papers myself (I have three on the go this month).

PM me and I will help you fill them out I could even do it an fax it to you to hand in (4free).

If you do it properly you cant lose but be patient it takes time for both judgement and to gain a warrant.

I have never lost a case yet this is partly because if the papers are done correctly then it becomes an administrative procedure and no court hearing is necessary.

I am going away early sat morning for 1 week so get in touch soon so you can get sorted before I go.

Oliver

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Oliver, several times a year to evict tenants, what are you doing wrong? If you're going several times a year your selection process needs improving, arrears handling improved, you're a solicitor or it's just bad luck. Much more cost-effective to take out a rent guarantee product or improve the upfront selection and problem handling.

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Hi

I go to court several times a year to evict tenants and do all the court papers myself (I have three on the go this month).

PM me and I will help you fill them out I could even do it an fax it to you to hand in (4free).

If you do it properly you cant lose but be patient it takes time for both judgement and to gain a warrant.

I have never lost a case yet this is partly because if the papers are done correctly then it becomes an administrative procedure and no court hearing is necessary.

I am going away early sat morning for 1 week so get in touch soon so you can get sorted before I go.

Oliver

hi oliver, i have seen your very generous offer of helping a LL in distress, and i wonder if you can offer me some guidence too..

i served not 21 on the 2nd aug 2007, as tenancy expires on the 14th oct 2007. i initially took 2 months advance rent and an additional £125 for dishwasher hire/deposit at the start of the tenancy on the 14th april 2007. the tenant has now gone to the court for a cliam against me for not protecting his so called bond, and has put in a claim for advance rent/deposit of d/w and 3x the amount= £2400 in total!

i have not sent my defense off yet, but i strongly think i took and quoted on the tenancy agreement and a receipt to the tenant thatit was 2 months advance rent on entry of tenancy period. there is no mention of deposit/bond on the agreement. does he have a case against me? also he has been advised by SHELTER and CAB and local housing that the not 21 is invalid as they agree/or have heard his verbal explanation that i did not protect his bond.. he is also refusing to take up offer of a council house, as i have given the copy of tenancy agreement to the housing, and thus they have now classed him in homeless category. to my dismay, the placement offered to my tenant is not suitable for them,so they have declined the offer, hence council cannot offer them further houding under homeless legislation...on the advise of solicitor, i have deposited the advance rent and deposit , in total £600 into D.P.S scheme, to prove that i have full intention of paying back advance. this was deposited on the 3rd oct 2007, and 11 days before their end of tenancy, and also 10 days before i received the court claim for the 3x the amount..the tenant was also told, with a witness on the 3rd oct 2007, that his advance was protected, and again via a letter/hand delivered to notify of the deposit i.d of the money in the scheme(8th oct 2007).... THE TENANT HAS NOT VACATED MY PROPERTY ON THE 14TH OCT 2007. HELP.. DO I RE-ISSUE THE NOT. 21 AGAIN TO BE CERTAIN TO FOLLOW UP WITH THE COURT ORDER AFTERWARDS, OR GO STRAIGHT TO THE COURT ORDER, AND HOPE THE JUDGE AWARD ME THE POSSESSION. WHAT IS NORMALLY THE DURATION FOR THIS PROCESS...YOUR EXPERT ADVISE WOULD BE REALLY APPRECIATED.

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If dep was £125 then you should only have put £125 into dep protection ....what made you put £600 ??

Also he can only claim 3x £125 ...................(£375 ??)

Under circumstances , as you are now going to lose afortune on legal & court fees also no payment of rent also prob bailiff fees .................i would offer the T £375 to get out ...like now ....

SImon

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