bigpw3000 Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 I had a tennant move into the property back in Feb and she paid all rent on time every month without delay. At the start of her tennancy I never made a inventory with her. I have since billed her for damage done ( admittedely I picked a few nits) the deposit was £500 and I gave her £50 back. now she threatens to take me to court because I have not provided reciepts for the damage and I have not done a inventory. where would she stand cheers guys for your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 £450 for damages AND you nit picked?? What exactly did you charge the £450 for? On the issue of where she would stand i'd say she has got you by the short & curlies. If she's threatening to sue then i guess she's disputing the damage and/or you have had any works done!! I think without an inventory it's going to be difficult for 'either' of you to prove/disprove' the condition of the property when the tenancy was taken up. If she sues I think she'll win as you didn't do an inventory at the start and these are in place to protect Tenants from 'rogue' Landlords who do this all the time. The fact that you said you 'nit picked' in my mind puts you in with this group. Prove me wrong here please! In future, don't nit pick, be fair,allow for FAIR wear & tear, get receipts for works carried out and above all DO AN INVENTORY at the start of any tenancy. And remember the next time you let you'll have to abide by the deposit protection rules now and insure/deposit the said amounts. I doubt whether the arbitrators will allow for nit picking!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 Bxxxxxxs If damage has been done -make sure you have witnesses that will state at the time of moving in prop was okay ... and tell T you will see them in court ....! 99% of people that threaten this NEVER follow thru ........so i wouldn't lose too much sleep over it ...... Assuming that you have charged a fair amount for works completed aand have relevent invoices for such (and that you havent taken the pxxxx) if you have then you deserve what you may get !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 Bxxxxxxs WAH HAY!!! If damage has been done -make sure you have witnesses (YEH COS THIS IS OK ISN'T IT) that will state at the time of moving in prop was okay ... and tell T you will see them in court ....! 99% of people that threaten this NEVER follow thru ........so i wouldn't lose too much sleep over it ...... LET'S HOPE THIS ONE DOES THEN!!Assuming that you have charged a fair amount for works completed and have relevent invoices (ALREADY STATED THAT THEY HAVEN'T 'PROVIDED' THEM) for such (and that you havent taken the pxxxx) (NIT PICKING MAY BE CONSTRUED AS TAKING THE P**S) if you have then you deserve what you may get !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EXACTLY! Simon I wanna say 'typical LL' but I'm going to refrain so as not to enter into a 'discussion' again with simon here but let's wait and see what bidpw 1982 comes back with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 You've got problems. Firstly, it's very easy for your tenant to go to court over this, secondly you're going to have to prove the condition before and after the tenancy and show damage was done (hard without an inventory) and thirdly you'll be asked to demonstrate your yardstick for assessment, if legitimate, for due damages. £450 is a lot not to have identified any problems during your periodic checks, the deposit isn't an old for new insurance policy for you to tap in to and you cannot use it to leave yourself in a better position than you were before. How about airing the breakdown of how you came to this amount via this forum for us to nit-pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 Going on purely what you are saying your Tenant will win her case because: 1. You failed to undertake a condition and inventory report at the start of the Tenancy. Copy to Tenant and a copy for you the LL. That's it! .......the small claims adjudicator will find in the Tenants favour. Unless you can prove wilful damage and other cast iron reasons you will have to pay your Tenant back. There has to be a certain amount of fair wear and tear allowance when the Tenant moves out. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugsy Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 I have to say, shame on you, for being such a s*** landlord. It's landlords like you who give us all a bad name and make our jobs harder. Landlord and tenant law is so heavilyweighted against us and in favour of the tenant... wonder why that is? You didn't do an inventory, duh! so suck it up and pay her back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Inventory or not ....If damage is done then you have a right to claim compensation for it ... It is, of course far more straight foward with an inventory v bond , but not impossible without one .... Personally i would COMMUNICATE and agree a fair fig with T ... if agreement cant be reached then i would wait for summons, then offer to pay back amount immediately... explaining that along with repayment cheque, will be invoice for damage and 10 days to pay monies due or face Debt collector ........ And await their reaponse ..........if no response then pay cheque (or tx funds dirctly into their bank acc ) so killing court action against you..... then chase debt for damage to your goods or chattels o/s bond and ast thru DC ...... Just create a situation where it is easier (and cheaper !) for them to pay debt than not!!! THIS IS ALL ASSUMING THAT YOU ARE NOT TAKING THE PXXSS WITH THE £450 Exactly what is it for? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenners Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Hi All, I am absolutely disgusted (and amazed) by some of the responses to this thread and it is now clear why the Government implemented the tenancy deposit schemes and thank heavens that they did ! Nit picking, unfair deductions without receipts, frightening the tenant by standing ground when clearly wrong, letting the tenant have to take legal proceedings against the landlord after they have been a model tenant for the duration of the tenancy and done nothing wrong etc etc etc etc Everyone who gave that advice should be ashamed of themselves. Landlords should always be, first and foremost, FAIR. Landlords should only be FIRM when they are in the right and - in this case - the landlord couldn't be further wrong. There is a lot more to being a landlord that trying to squeeze every last penny of cash out of the tenant. I agree with J4L - those type of landlords should be thrown out of town. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugsy Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Just another thing big-whatever your name is, you have turned a model tenant (one most of us would love to have) into someone who now thinks that landlords are dodgy con artists (she's gonna be mega suspicious of her next LL and perhaps she'll take the p*** this time). Well done you! Leave the landlording to the professionals, eh, before you alienate us even more from our customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Hi All, I am absolutely disgusted (and amazed) by some of the responses to this thread and it is now clear why the Government implemented the tenancy deposit schemes and thank heavens that they did ! Nit picking, unfair deductions without receipts, frightening the tenant by standing ground when clearly wrong, letting the tenant have to take legal proceedings against the landlord after they have been a model tenant for the duration of the tenancy and done nothing wrong etc etc etc etc Everyone who gave that advice should be ashamed of themselves. Landlords should always be, first and foremost, FAIR. Landlords should only be FIRM when they are in the right and - in this case - the landlord couldn't be further wrong. There is a lot more to being a landlord that trying to squeeze every last penny of cash out of the tenant. I agree with J4L - those type of landlords should be thrown out of town. Mark Well, 6 people replied to this persons comments and 5 people supported the Tenant and not the Landlord and they were Me, J4L, GPEL, PUGSY, AND TRENNERS so that only leaves 1 so that is not a plural of the word "response" Mark. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 I think to assess this more fairly we need to see a breakdown of the £450 ...????????? I sided with the LL on the basis that : THIS IS ALL ASSUMING THAT YOU ARE NOT TAKING THE PXXSS WITH THE £450 and tha the first step is to "COMMUNICATE and agree a fair fig with T ..." and only if T gets unreasonable to follow into further action If however damage is actually wear and tear then i refer you to my first post Assuming that you have charged a fair amount for works completed aand have relevent invoices for such (and that you havent taken the pxxxx) if you have then you deserve what you may get !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not believe that the absence of an inventory gives the T the right to wreck your property in any way ... I do agree it is a bit silly not to have one though !!!! If damage has been done and can be proven than clearly T should pay .....or am i on the wrong site ? Sided not with the LL or The T but with what is FAIR RIGHT and Moral or if for any reason any of us misplace an inventory are we all to be made to pick up the bills of vandals ....Not on my watch Sir !!!!!!!!!!!!!! SIMON OKAY BIGPW1982 LET US HAVE THE BREAKDOWN SO WE MAY BE JUDGE AND JURY TO YOUR ALLEDGED CRIME...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 We do need more detail on this before we condemn Bigpw. The nit picking could have been a joke afterall? Please don't be scared off and give us a breakdown Bigpw. Though, I certainly don't condone keeping the deposit if there are just a few scuffs, but we don't know until we have more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Well, 6 people replied to this persons comments and 5 people supported the Tenant and not the Landlord and they were Me, J4L, GPEL, PUGSY, AND TRENNERS so that only leaves 1 so that is not a plural of the word "response" Mark. Mel. Mel you have overlooked the fact that i had posted twice(plural) so we are going to have to let Mark have this one !!! this is getting a bit pedantic now !!! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPEL Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 If we're given an idea of the nature of the damage and reasoning behind the deduction, we might not have to take sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 Well, 6 people replied to this persons comments and 5 people supported the Tenant and not the Landlord and they were Me, J4L, GPEL, PUGSY, AND TRENNERS so that only leaves 1 so that is not a plural of the word "response" Mark. Mel. Mel you have overlooked the fact that i had posted twice(plural) so we are going to have to let Mark have this one !!! this is getting a bit pedantic now !!! Simon I love being pedantic sooooooo.... I never mentioned you by name and if I had you would only count as 1 person making 6 in total and the fact you replied twice doesn't count. If more than 1 person had replied with a negative response to the original question than Trenners may have used the plural word. "responses" I hope your keeping up! Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 Keeping up ................. Yep all the way ....now pass the sherry , please ......LOL Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 "or if for any reason any of us MISPLACE AN INVENTORY are we all to be made to pick up the bills of vandals ....Not on my watch Sir !!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Yes Simon, on your watch. I feel you are wrong here. If you MISPLACE AN INVENTORY, it doesn't come across as very professional does it and I'm SURE that any judge presiding over 'this' case would definitely side with the Tenant. Vandalism is a criminal offence and without a crime number, and maybe some photographs and POSSIBLY some sort of conviction you will find it very hard to prove. Unfortunately you wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance. (Although you may have bullied them into submission by this time with your DC!!! haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 Right and wrong is NOT based on bits of paper (although it certainly helps to prove a case) If i came over to your garage and smashed your motorbike up and then told you that because you didn't have a pic and written desciption of it ,YOU ARE IN THE WRONG TO ask me to cover damages .....i would suggest that you may disagree ?? I think it is VERY wrong for a T to damage my prop then say "ha ha you havent got a piece of paper so Fxxx you i'm not paying......" and in this sit would raise whever evidence i could ..staff ,cleaners, previous T's etc to "prove my case should it get as far as court ..... The lack of an inventory DOES NOT absolve a T morally or legally from responsibility for damage - they know if they have broken or damaged something and so do you (LL). If they are not going to be decent about it and behave in a disgraceful manner then i will react accordingly ...alot of this is academic with the new TDS rules now ...and is only going to apply to the "non-decent T" this has never really been problem for me as the vast majority of my T are reasonable and sensible ...the advice i give is what i would do given some of the hopeless situations and stalemates people seem to get themselves into ...i am more than pleased to say that at worst it is a rare occurence for me to be in this situation ... I think that maybe because i post so often with the same answer that some may think i have a permanant dedicated line to the debt collectors ......the reality couldn't be further from it !!!!! Most people post their problem looking for advice because they have tried everything they can think of and just dont know what to do next ......so REAL "problems" ...We dont hear of problems with "tidy" T because situations are resolved and there is no need to discuss them .....We can all write " had a T check out today -place was fine ,few minor scuffs etc but let it go ....this i believe is "Normal" ...but would outnumber the probs we see on here at 1000 to 1 ...so take this on board when reading this lot !! That is not to say Rogue LL dont exist -they do and always will- but just because you havent done or lost an Inventory does not make you one of these.(IMO)............ trying to charge people unfairly certainly does .... As for "bullying" .....No sir not i .....the corgi man looks after the gas ......the spark looks after electrics ...and if you dont pay your dues the DC will look after late payment .....OR ...(if you dont want to be a "BULLY" then go to court and use a BAILIFF" If you could explain to me why a DC is a bully and a bailiff is not (inferred by gareth) i would be ever so grateful ....???? But i will state once again that i believe DC to be a very helpful step in managing debt quickly and effectively ....ultimately if they cannot collect then the matter will progress to court thru them ....but this is more efficient management than going straight to small claims for money or straight for the jugular in eviction scenarios ..... I had a T move out at the beginning of august(a very A1 T) ....leaving a very large burn in the middle of the lounge carpet ....i also was in a position were i had no inventory (yep misplaced it ...unfortunately so had the tenant ....) FORTUNATELY when i asked the tenant how on earth she had managed to make such a big burn mark she told me (she had been carrying the grill pan with a pizza on it ,burnt her hand and dropped it !!) she then asked me how much it was going to cost to replace carpet ,so i got a quote -which she accepted, and deducted it from her bond .....NO PROBLEM !! The problems discussed on here are not with these sorts of people, they are generally a completely different breed altogether, and as you will find out from bitter experience ,with time Gareth.And you will come to realise that they need to be handled more at their level of operation when the situation calls for it ... Now call me a rogue LL or whatever you want, i have a head count of approx 100 people at any given time in my personal portfolio and it is a very rare occurance that i fall out with any of them .... Simon - Firm but fair ..... To finish ..this post is not an excuse for not doing an Inventory -they should be done on every Prop everytime ...but a realistic way to deal with the situation should you find yourself without one for whatver reason .... The whole problem and some responses smack of nieve incompetence and a complete lack of experience of dealinng with people in general, running a business and having procedures and systems in place to deal with potential problems ...but then isn't that one of the main reasons for the forum ??!!! LOL This poor guy (bigpw1982 ) has been hung drawn and quartered without posters even getting the bare facts on the sit ....not only that but posters have also been judged as right wrong B4 any of the facts have emerged ..if i was (bigpw1982) i doubt very much if i would bother even visiting the forum again ...... What if the £450 is completly genuine and the nit picking perfectly acceptable ....is he still a rogue ? Should he write off his loss because he didn't do an inventory ....? I think not..... Earn as you learn but try not to give it away thru misadvice or sheer stupidity or more importantly by ripping people off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugsy Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 I completely agree with Simon about the right and wrong issues and that compromises can be worked out with discussion. However this LL did not lose his inventory, he failed to do one then kept nearly all of the T's deposit, without even justifying it to the tenant. This is plain unprofessional and unethical. It's been an interesting discussion, but judging from the deafening silence from big***, one can assume the deductions were unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 I also agree with simon on some of his comments here. Yes if the carpet burn, pizza carrying lady, admits their fault and there's no inventory then of course you are not going to experience any problems. I think the point of this discussion here though is that the Landlord has deducted £450 of £500, provided no invoices for work done, and has admitted to nit picking. My point was that with no inventory, invoices etc the Tenant would win this in court. If i came over to your garage and smashed your motorbike up and then told you that because you didn't have a pic and written desciption of it ,YOU ARE IN THE WRONG TO ask me to cover damages .....i would suggest that you may disagree ?? Firstly, If I had 'leased' my motorbike to you and then you smashed it up, yes I would expect you to pay for the damages, it would be written into the agreement. and Secondly, had I 'leased' it to you I would DEFINITELY have a picture and a written description anyway!! Just the same as you renting one of my houses. If you could explain to me why a DC is a bully and a bailiff is not (inferred by gareth) i would be ever so grateful ....???? No i didn't infer that a bailiff isn't a bully, I just inferred that there are ways and processes to achieve such goals and the DC isn't ALWAYS the way to go straight away. By introducing the DC they bully people into paying monies that they 'sometimes' do not owe. And by introducing them too early you are not only advocating their behaviour but also promoting it (as you do so many times on here) I've got to say Simon, you appear to be a level headed guy and although it grates me to admit I'd probably like you if we ever met. You have just got to get off that high horse sometimes and listen to others a little bit, and not just the voices in your head!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Firstly, If I had 'leased' my motorbike to you and then you smashed it up, yes I would expect you to pay for the damages, it would be written into the agreement. and Secondly, had I 'leased' it to you I would DEFINITELY have a picture and a written description anyway!! Just the same as you renting one of my houses. Agreed ...BUT if you found yourself without these docs(for whatever reason).....you certainly have a very weak legal position ...BUT it does not make you wrong or unethical to ask for funds to correct damage neither does it make you out of order ................. I work on the basis that i treat others as i would like to be treated so if they are not going to plays by the rules ..or adopt a new set of rules i will respond acordingly (within the law of course). Clearly we should all have inventories at all times ! but hey Sxxt happens ! Simon (the jockey with a step ladder!!) May the banter continue!!!!!!! Mel - seem to have caught the "pedantic" bug ..........!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Agreed ...BUT if you found yourself without these docs(for whatever reason)..... Totally unprofessional! Best you get a better filing system in place. If you are fair, and you do say that you are, then fine, you have nothing to worry about. The original poster though didn't even write one out! How foolish is that? yes the introduction of the TDS will get rid of the rogue LL's so those who are not in this category shouldn't worry, should they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Dewsberry Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 I have a couple of props with no inventories on them ........ooops, i'm now a rogue LL NOT ......I am just relying on the better side of human nature when and if the time comes >...................!!!!!!! but this can and will easily be corrected on a signed inspection report .......although i must confess i am not religious about those either..............but the these are my props and my lookout (not managing anyone elses affairs or investments which would be a completely different matter!) So now i should perhaps consider myself an unprofesional rogue LL ??? or just a very busy one who sometime before the T runs out should do an inspection on a couple of props .....to protect myself ......a lot of the time damages that i experience happens in communal areas of HMO's where "blame" is very difficult to pin on anyone ...also very difficult legally ! but with the right communication i seem to resolve problems .and amicably... Foolish.....yes .....as LL is wide open to abuse .....too trusting, vunerable, nieve.......unprofessional -probably ....but rogue ?? not until he tries to rip off T!!! And if he never rips any one off ? much more likely that he is to be ripped off ...as per post on here not so long ago ..when carpet was left off inventory and legal position was that it did not "exist " !!!!! Now just who is the rogue on that ??? I will reiterate b4 i am slamed ......yes we should all have the sense to do an inventory .....! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4L Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 ooops, i'm now a rogue LL?? Nobody called YOU a rogue LL Simon. . . . . The advice that has been given is that LL's need to /should carry out an inventory on check in and regular periodic inspections to ascertain the condition of the property and the conformity of the tenant. "yes we should all have the sense to do an inventory .....!" ok so you admitted it. Thanks. It feels nice that you can take advice occasionally and not 'expect' just to be giving it out! Now, my opinion on performing an inventory is that it covers ALL bases and leaves nothing open ended should the Tenant trash the house. I'm sure that we'd pick this up SOONER rather than LATER by performing REGULAR checks! And be onto it probably quicker than a LL who can be "or just a very busy one " (not my words Simon, yours!! So why not save yourself the trouble and employ a 'GOOD' letting agent who you pay to do these tasks eh?? Of course you'd NEVER do that because you are too set in your ways mate, sorry. "And if he never rips any one off ? much more likely that he is to be ripped off" NO NO NO NO NO!!!!! That is such a defensive attitude, ying yang, what goes around comes around sh**e and it doesn't bode well with me. If you EXPECT it to happen mate, it WILL. The mind is a great thing and the more you "will" something to arise then believe me it will arise. And this is noboby's 'fault' but your own because you show negative attitudes and emotions, people pick up on them subconciously and THEN take you for a ride, and they don't even know they're doing it. (Believe me I have studied Psychology for too many years now to be mistaken, although it does happen very occasionally) Simon, you have on occasion suggested that I am childish and more recently, petulant. What I actually am is educated , grown up, and MOST OF ALL fairly wise to the world. But even more than this I am REALISTIC and I try to not leave any stone unturned, generally in life, but mostly for those whom I represent. I have a conscience and am very proud of it, I don't do guilt too well and abhor the thought that somebody feels my services are inadequate. Thus I try my 'hardest' for my customers, I work long hours to their end and 'make sure' they are completely satisfied with the service they get. I can assure all who read this that I get very few complaints. Now this post is not for the purpose of marketing or any personal gain, whether it be to just 'score points' or likewise but just to 'show' some, that there are real, honest, hardworking people out there who know a little and should 'occasionally' get the respect that they deserve. Simon, take a chill pill mate and don't be adverse to a little change in your life/business. What's the 'worst' that could happen!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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