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First Time Letting My House & Non-Paying Tenants Already


Great Fandango

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This is my first ever time letting my house as moved away from the area at the beginning of year with work. I didn't want to sell the house so thought the obvious step would be to rent my house in West Yorkshire

I rented my house to a family. They seemed pleasant and genuine.

This was done using a typical 6 month assured shorthold tenancy contract which I downloaded from a letting website and slightly amended to suit both myself and the tenants.

The contract clearly states they must pay rent on the 1st of every month for that month.

They moved in on the 1st April - one month's rent as bond and the first month's rent paid in cash... everything's hunky-dory!

THEN!...

Problems start...

May 2007

8th May - I receive a letter and attached cheque from my bank. The cheque had bounced. As agreed verbally and in the contract the tenants wanted to pay in CASH into my bank directly over the counter.

Eventually drove over and collected cash in person on 10th May

June 2007

Same problem - a letter and attached cheque arrived on my doorstep about 15th June. This time they ignored telephone calls, texts, and when I knocked on their door they didn't answer. I eventaully tracked them down in person at their place of work. They said no problem, they would pay in cash the next day. The cash never showed up until June 24th but it was actually paid by cheque.

July 2007

Didn't receive ANY rent... They continued to not answer the phone. Every so often I would receive a text to say the rent would be going in the following day but nothing! By this point beginning to think they're playing me for a fool.

August 2007 (to date)

August 1st - Served them notice by delivering in person a section 21 order. If what I've been told is correct then this means they have to give me back my property on the last day of September (which is when the 6 months runs out anyway). They were allegedly out when I delivered this notice but a text comes my way 2 minutes after I left. I left two copies, one for them and one to sign and mail back to me using a stamped addressed envelope. Have still not received this copy in the post!

August 5th - They asked me to drive over so they could give me THREE month's rent in cash (July owed, August now owed, and September in advance). Got there to be given another blimin' cheque for July's rent only. I put it in the bank the following day but it has still not cleared. Suspect it will bounce again!

They promised to have the remaining Aug and Sep rent in my account by Wednesday 8th but nothing as of today (Sun 12th August).

I feel like they're running rings around me and using me and my house.

Furthermore, I'm worried in case they decide to up and leave without paying me anything. How will I track them down?

Just wondered if anyone could offer any support, advice on what I should have done or what step I should take next?

Any help greatly appreciated

Helen

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Mate you are being taken for a fool. Do a search for Debt collection in this site, Rodent has done a detailed thread. Rodent is our expert in this field. Never had to do this, but simple anser is INSTRUCT DEBT COLLECTORS STRAIGHT AWAY. You should have threatened this after payment was late first time.

If they know the DC will be on their back and increase the Debt (find a DC who charges you nothing, but charges the Debtor, i.e. 15% of the debt plus extra chasing costs) then they are liekly to settle the debt and quick.

If you go down S21 route straight away it is likely to take months and you will never see the money owed.

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This is my first ever time letting my house as moved away from the area at the beginning of year with work. I didn't want to sell the house so thought the obvious step would be to rent my house in West Yorkshire

I rented my house to a family. They seemed pleasant and genuine.

This was done using a typical 6 month assured shorthold tenancy contract which I downloaded from a letting website and slightly amended to suit both myself and the tenants.

The contract clearly states they must pay rent on the 1st of every month for that month.

They moved in on the 1st April - one month's rent as bond and the first month's rent paid in cash... everything's hunky-dory!

THEN!...

Problems start...

May 2007

8th May - I receive a letter and attached cheque from my bank. The cheque had bounced. As agreed verbally and in the contract the tenants wanted to pay in CASH into my bank directly over the counter.

Eventually drove over and collected cash in person on 10th May

June 2007

Same problem - a letter and attached cheque arrived on my doorstep about 15th June. This time they ignored telephone calls, texts, and when I knocked on their door they didn't answer. I eventaully tracked them down in person at their place of work. They said no problem, they would pay in cash the next day. The cash never showed up until June 24th but it was actually paid by cheque.

July 2007

Didn't receive ANY rent... They continued to not answer the phone. Every so often I would receive a text to say the rent would be going in the following day but nothing! By this point beginning to think they're playing me for a fool.

August 2007 (to date)

August 1st - Served them notice by delivering in person a section 21 order. If what I've been told is correct then this means they have to give me back my property on the last day of September (which is when the 6 months runs out anyway). They were allegedly out when I delivered this notice but a text comes my way 2 minutes after I left. I left two copies, one for them and one to sign and mail back to me using a stamped addressed envelope. Have still not received this copy in the post!

August 5th - They asked me to drive over so they could give me THREE month's rent in cash (July owed, August now owed, and September in advance). Got there to be given another blimin' cheque for July's rent only. I put it in the bank the following day but it has still not cleared. Suspect it will bounce again!

They promised to have the remaining Aug and Sep rent in my account by Wednesday 8th but nothing as of today (Sun 12th August).

I feel like they're running rings around me and using me and my house.

Furthermore, I'm worried in case they decide to up and leave without paying me anything. How will I track them down?

Just wondered if anyone could offer any support, advice on what I should have done or what step I should take next?

Any help greatly appreciated

Helen

You seem to be in the same mess we are in. Our Section 21 comes into effect next week and very very tempted to just go in and start refurbishment on that day, put house on market and leave the renting game to the professionals that are so helpful on this site. I have followed a lot of advice RODENT gives out. (although they all are very knowledgable, I feel he is more realistic of life and does not suffer fools)

Gave T's a large bill with rent arrears plus interest (as in tenancy agreement) with the option of just bringing rent up to date, moving out and would forget the rest........result nil

Also gave the option of walking away in 2 weeks owing nothing..........was so desperate to get them out.........result nil. This one IS NOT Rodents advice........he woulld probally have a fit if he reads this!!!

Then contacted Thornbury's Debt Collecting Agency, very nice guys but to date.......result nil.

Found out they were having the rent part paid by HB and not passing it on ( although agreement states all HB cheques to go direct to LL) Contacted HB to inform them, tenants have now cancelled their claim, HB were not happy with them but...........result nil.

These people are not tenants........they are, in my opinion, squatters.

Tenants were checked out before renting.......but again have learnt a hell of a lot on this site. Stable door has shut and hindsight being a wonderful thing but wish I had got more details from them. I have passed a lot on to the DC but realise I could of taken NI numbers.

I run my own business......no not a landlord!! I have to obtain CRB (Criminal Record Bureau checks) on all my staff BEFORE employment. I think this would be a very good idea for LL to be able to go down this road with tenants. (any criminal convictions however minor, caution's included, helps to form an opinion on the suitability and honesty of the tenant) The goverment should realise what a housing mess they would be in if all the LL's retired from the business through the uneven plaing field that they are at present playing on.

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Hi Helen

Here comes the line i type on here so very often

Put a debt collector on to them immediately - informing them that they will also be liable for DC fees

also for the future do proper referencing that means proper not just confirming they have a job on a telephone (to what is probably one of their mates)

use FLS (tenantref.co.uk) THIS IS WHAT THEY WILL DO FOR £20(+vat)

FULL PROFILE REFERENCING

EMPLOYMENT STATUS & INCOME CONFIRMATION

Information about the applicant's current employment and salary information are obtained from the employer in writing. An initial telephone call to the employer is made to establish who we should address our enquiry to and a faxed or e-mailed request is sent directly to that person. Confirmation of the applicant's employment status, length of service and salary package are obtained. If the applicant has been employed for under three months then a reference will be taken up with the previous employer to ensure that there was no detrimental reason for leaving and that the job change only occurred due to relocation, career progression or position redundancy. If the applicant is self employed we will obtain a reference from their accountant wherever possible and obtain copies of the most recent set of accounts. Other forms of evidence can be accepted but this will depend on other factors.

ADDRESS VERIFICATION/RESIDENCY CONFIRMATION

Each applicant's history of residence is confirmed prior to the county Court Judgment/Court Decree and Bankruptcy searches being carried out. We can confirm that the applicant has given us the correct address through a variety of different information media. The preferred option is to use the National Electoral Register , but should an applicant not be present on the Electoral Register at the address provided then we will look for previous credit applications, address links and recorded associations with others who can be confirmed to reside at the address by Electoral Register data.

DEROGATORY INFORMATION SEARCHES

County Court Judgments/Court Decree (Scotland)

Each address supplied is searched for County Court Judgments and Court Decrees (Scotland). In addition to this address links may show other addresses where the applicant has resided but failed to inform us about. Any additional addresses located for the applicant will be searched.

Bankruptcy Data

Each address supplied is searched for Bankruptcy Data in the name of the applicant using our on-line information provider. A live enquiry is also carried out by fax with the DTI Insolvency Service as there is sometimes a delay on the information main-frame being updated. This service searches for possible name matches countrywide and is not restricted to an address.

Existing Credit Agreements

Previous and open credit agreements are checked for payment history and account conductivity. The repayment value of these accounts is included in our calculation of the applicant's credit limit, reducing the chances of the tenant being over committed. ....

TDFT Data

Our in house database contains approximately 140,000 records of previous tenancy applications. Our database is updated with late payments, default data, fraudulent applications and theft cases and is proving to be a very useful tool.

PREVIOUS LANDLORD/LETTING AGENT REFERENCE

Enquiries are made with the previous/current Landlord or Letting Agent to establish if the current tenancy has been conducted in a satisfactory manner. Confirmation is received for length of tenancy, rental payment record, condition of property, reason for tenancy ending and whether the correct notice period has been given.

NEXT OF KIN - ADDRESS CHECK

The details for the applicant's next of kin are supplied to us by the applicant on our form. These details are confirmed to be correct during the vetting process as in the unlikely event that the tenant absconds this information could be vital in tracing the debtor.

Each Full Profile Enquiry Includes:

...

A full report including suggested monthly rental limit will be sent to you by fax, post or e-mail on completion of our enquiries. SMS updates can be sent to your mobile to inform you of the application progress and result if required.

Also take Photo ID (DL or passport) Work mobile and Next of kin addresses and contact numbers

Get late payment, interest and admin (letter) charges included in your contract immediately

Use a debt collector (or rather the threat of ...!) immediately when people are late with payments

SET AN IMMEDIATE PRECEDENT THAT YOU ARE ARE A PROFESSIONAL LL NOT A JOKER AND YOU WILL NOTTOLERATE ANY NONSENSE WITH PAYMENTS OF ANY KIND .........

Please see previous posts of this subject for loads of detailed advice............

As you will see i am not a fan of the S21 route as it is wholly inefficent, time consuming, stressful, very expensive (lost time=lost rent) and although you will eventually get your prop back (prob 3-4 mths) you are extremely unlikely to recover the arrears or the rent for the next 3-4 months while you wait for the cumbersome system to kick in ...............

Simon

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Kalbi

Extreme circumstances require extreme measures

Have only ever done this next bit once .....

Offer the Tenant £100 is cash to vacate immediately

This is now a damage limitation exercise.

Simon

PS all confirmed in writing signed and witnessed by them

PPs you could give it to them as a cheque ((you know a rubber one LOL.........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

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Hi,

I am a fan of the Section 21 route (it is by far the simplest way to get repossession) and will only take 28 days if you used accelerated possession. However, I am a little concerned about your ability to PROVE that you served the Section 21 notice on the date that you state it was served.

To PROVE it was served then either the tenants need to date / sign the notice (which I assume they have not) or a 3rd party needs to witness you posting the s21 through their letterbox (and be prepared to complete an N215 form stating that they witnessed you serving the notice) or you need to post it with "proof of posting".

When you complete the N5B form you are required to attach the proof that the s21 was served. The only defence to an N5B summons is that the s21 was not served (which is why it is so important that you can prove that you did serve it) or the s21 was not completed correctly thereby making it invalid (you have to send a copy of the s21 notice to the courts as well).

By all means use debt collectors - but make sure you get possession of your property first and foremost.

Good luck,

Mark

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Thanks for your replies........Rodent....what "hot water" would we get into by letting ourselves in on eviction date if the T's have no intention of moving and starting refurbishment work......ie strip kitchen out. Know that this is not the done way of doing things, but would the T's not have to see solicitors and take us to court. I cannot see them doing that but would welcome your comments

Thanks

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Thanks you SO much for all your advice. To date you have been more supportive and helpful than any website or supposed expert I have tried to contact. Wish I'd found this forum sooner!

With regards to the 'Section 21', I served it in person hand delivered through their letter box. They didn't answer the door but I knew they were in as the car was on the drive and the TV and laptop on in the living room!

I had a friend in the car who I suppose is my witness and I made my old next door neighbour aware of the fact I was serving notice. The fact that I still have not received thier signed copy (I enclosed a stamped addressed envelope) tells me they're just stalling for time.

OK!...

1. I'm going over there tonight to get them to sign and back date a Section 21.

2. Giving them until 11am tomorrow to pay up in full.

3. Non-payment after 11am tomorrow and here come the debt collectors.

You guys have cheered me up a little - things had been getting me down. It's good to know there are some people to turn to.

Best regards and thanks again

Helen

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Thanks for advice Rodent .......re the £100. The house they are "squatting in" is two bedroomed and full of their furniture and possessions. I cannot see them taking just that amount and by the time they have found somewhere, moved their belongings, the cheque would of had time to go through. I do not think for one minute that they would vacate on the "promise" of a cheque as they leave!!!!!! I do appreciate the suggestion though , but dont think it would work on these "people"

Still very interested on what action if any they could take if we go by our thoughts of refurbishment on eviction day??

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Don't bother getting your tenants to sign the S21, there's no need. So long as the notice is correctly completed and served you are OK. You only need a witness if it is challenged in court. Therefore, as a safeguard, either send it recorded delivery or get it witnessed that you you posted it at the property, which you appear to have done.

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Hi,

I am a fan of the Section 21 route (it is by far the simplest way to get repossession) and will only take 28 days if you used accelerated possession. However, I am a little concerned about your ability to PROVE that you served the Section 21 notice on the date that you state it was served.

To PROVE it was served then either the tenants need to date / sign the notice (which I assume they have not) or a 3rd party needs to witness you posting the s21 through their letterbox (and be prepared to complete an N215 form stating that they witnessed you serving the notice) or you need to post it with "proof of posting".

When you complete the N5B form you are required to attach the proof that the s21 was served. The only defence to an N5B summons is that the s21 was not served (which is why it is so important that you can prove that you did serve it) or the s21 was not completed correctly thereby making it invalid (you have to send a copy of the s21 notice to the courts as well).

By all means use debt collectors - but make sure you get possession of your property first and foremost.

Good luck,

Mark

28 Days .......................

Any managed to do it in 28 days with tenants like this .............????????

Mark and i are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum on this

Mark why would you want to wait until prop is back in your possession - debt has doubled and tenant dissappeared before collecting your money ????????

a bit like wait until they have cut your hand off and then when they have - punch them , you know with the hand you havent got any more ...

I will say it again - if someone owes you money you have a right to collect it immediately - also the right to employ an agent to collect on your behalf ....

Is this not not exactly what you employ a Letting agent to do (often very inefficiently -then compounded with the above attitude)

When the "letting" agent has failed in his duties then it is time to employ a proper "collection" agent to do the job properly - part of DC procedure will be to take them to court if T fails to pay-- THis is very diffeicult once debt has become unmanageable due to allowing it to grow over time (wait until you have regained possession etc..) and once T has dissappered ....

I am opened minded Mark ...so explain your logic..........

By all means issue a S21 to run along side ....I have personally never served one ..let alone been to court ....have always negotiated immediate vacation as part of settlement..........

Simon

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As far as i am concerned an eviction order is clear in its meaning "get out and now" if T left prop un occupied i would remove all possessions and quickly- on the basis that they had been abandonded - would put them in storage for required time - then return to tenant on payment of outstanding monies.

If payment not made then i would sell them for what i could get for them ..

As i understand it this would be a civil matter so police pretty powerless - Leaving T with option to take me to court....Great, see you in court then !!!

Dont know the legal ramifications of this approach ......but some one will surely tell me all the reasons why i shouldn't do this !!

It is worth noting that threats of court action are common- people actually following thru are a lot less frequent !!!

Simon

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I have finally managed to get a call from my tenant after a couple of days of trying.

I told her in no uncertain terms that I had contacted a debt collection agency who were waiting on my go ahead to start proceedings against her. (this is a fabrication as I haven't spoken to the DCA yet, but she doesn't know that)

I have also written a letter to send to her confirming this in writing.

She asked for 5 more days to pay (ie- she gets paid on 17th August and wants to pay in cash then). I have agreed to this, but have said that if the rent has not been received by me on friday then I would be giving the go-ahead to the debt collection agency (again I have put all this in the letter)

Am I foolish to have done this? (my partner thinks I am!) But when I have spoken to 'legal professionals' before they said it doesn't hurt my case if it goes to court if I have given them every opportunity to pay, and I have given them clear dates to work to. Plus even my work gives a customer 7 days following a debt collection threat to settle the account - they use it as a scare tactic.

In my eyes its 'last chance saloon' for her.

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Hi

you have done exactly the correct thing ..

Also VERY IMPORTANT, include in your letter that the DC fee of 15% will also be payable by tenant and NAME the DC, also that any further expenses incurred by DC will be payable by T and interest will be applied at 5% above BoE base rate from next friday- also point out that you will have little or no control over debt once it has been passed and also fees will not be able to be removed once debt collector has case......

MAKE SURE LETTER IS RECORDED DELIVERY i always send mine by next day courier

Or hand deliver with at least one witness ....

Now dont you feel a bit more "in control !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

fingers crossed for friday .....

It is worth mentioning that it is very rare that i actually use the DC this step (above deployed effectively normally sorts the prob) If T only has half money etc on fri i would give them the sharp edge of my tongue then get a written agreement that they pay the rest within another 3/7 days (obviosly i dont tell them this until fri when they arrive wit the money)

I use this as lever to get them out of the prop as well so if you want to kill 2 birds with one stone i would have structured the deal to get them to pay and leave at the end of august to avoid "vacating problems" - you will have the bond to cover sept rent(i Hope!!!)) and if you let them stay you will have to hope that they go "quietly" In any event i would make it clear that prop is relet from 1/10 so that thay are under no illusion that they are expected to leave on or end sept ..

Simon

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Hi Rodent,

I don't think we are in disagreement. If you are owed money then, of course, debt collection (or whatever it takes) is the right way to approach the problem.

My point was simply that if I had to choose between getting my property back or chasing for a debt then I would choose to get the property back FIRST - via a Section 21. Absolutely no problem, by the way, in getting a possession order after 28 days as long as the S21 was served and completed correctly.

I am always fearful, as a landlord, that if I get too heavy handed too soon with debt collectors etc (whilst the tenant is still living in my property) then there is a danger, in retaliation, that the tenant wil trash the place or cause a certain level of additional damage.

I appreciate that I could then sue the tenant for the damage etc etc etc ......... but I just feel it is easier to get possession of the property first, then chase the tenant for the debt second ...... it is, sort of, a refined approach to the "I'll give you £100 to go quietly method".

It's just my approach ... and I appreciate it is not for everyone !

Best Wishes,

Mark

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Mark

The problem with the "get prop back first" is that t then dissappears leaving uncollectable arrears - If you do it DC route then debt is brought under management a lot faster - isn't allowed to grow by virtue of timescales involved and is reduced - usually very quickly -

I think "you can now live here (effectively for free) cos i'm worried you might trash my house" is a pretty spineless way forward...I personally think that taking someone to court before negotiating an amicable mutual agreement is considerably more "Heavy handed".......expensive etc

- I am 5'4" dont have the physical presence to be threatening, I seldom rasie my voice, i stay calm and keep sensible negotion and communication channels open at all times

- this i feel is far more effective and profitable and a whole lot less stressful for all concerned .............and acheives the desired result a whole lot more quickly and cheaply!1

Simon

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As the saying goes, better an empty property than a bad tenant. However, that doesn't mean being intimidated or being too cautious about their response to debt recovery, while getting the property returned. If they trash it, their debt increases and there's always the insurance policy to fall back on. Let sleeping dogs lie is def'n not appliceable. I lean towards Simon's tenant-handling in this situation. Serve notice and get the prop back soonest but in meantime do all that's reasonable to reduce losses using an escalation of measures subject to circumstances.

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Still very interested on what action if any they could take if we go by our thoughts of refurbishment on eviction day??

wouldn't entertain the idea until possesion has been secured and locks changed...as for "hot water" ..honestly dont know ...never tried it ...but if prop is empty then surely -it can be assumed that they have complied with eviction notice and just left possessions ......!

then you know what i would do next ..............

locks can be changed in minites .......or you could just wait the extra 2 weeks for the bailiffs ..and hope they do their job properly ...

Simon

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Many thanks Simon and others that have tried to help

I know it is hard for any of you to be seen to advise anyone on underhand methods, but sometimes I think if the situation calls for it!! The alternative is to spend another few months trying to do it the "right" way, paying for legal fees, no rent coming in to help with the mortgage and knowing they are trashing what was once your lovely home, sticking their fingers up to you and the system, not to mention the stress facture!! Bad T's do not seem to have any morals, yet the LL are expected to do everything fair, legal and above board.

Maybe on eviction day they will be gone.......and we can go back to sleeping at night! ( sure that was a pig flying by!!) Hopefully good tenants will always outnumber the pond life of this world. These particular T's will go on and do the same elsewhere to another amateur LL. Only wish there was a landlord beware site to name them.

Thanks again

Kalbi

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I have finally managed to get a call from my tenant after a couple of days of trying.

I told her in no uncertain terms that I had contacted a debt collection agency who were waiting on my go ahead to start proceedings against her. (this is a fabrication as I haven't spoken to the DCA yet, but she doesn't know that)

I have also written a letter to send to her confirming this in writing.

She asked for 5 more days to pay (ie- she gets paid on 17th August and wants to pay in cash then). I have agreed to this, but have said that if the rent has not been received by me on friday then I would be giving the go-ahead to the debt collection agency (again I have put all this in the letter)

Am I foolish to have done this? (my partner thinks I am!) But when I have spoken to 'legal professionals' before they said it doesn't hurt my case if it goes to court if I have given them every opportunity to pay, and I have given them clear dates to work to. Plus even my work gives a customer 7 days following a debt collection threat to settle the account - they use it as a scare tactic.

In my eyes its 'last chance saloon' for her.

Hi ,I know how y feel ,it is very stressful ,I offered my tenant money for a deposit for a new flat ,he said he had no money to move ,he thought he had a right to stay ,this was why I offered him the cash ! It backfired ,I had no other motive but to get him out so I could relet the flat .Never again!

Get rid of this troublesome tenant whatever happens with the payments!!!

I served section 21 and we went to court ,I got the flat back + £1000 legal fees ! months lost rent ,trashed flat etc..

He said to the council I made him homeless!!

hein25.

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