Deed of surrender

[Thermoman]

The ast tenancy was in  my daughters name

Her partner lived there but was not named   on the tennancy

My daughter went in to hospital 

Had a baby and had to go to mother and baby unit and was sectioned

She is now home with us and not on section and is willing to sign a deed of surrender 

Her partner paid some rent while she was in hospital

It will be the end of the 6 months ast on 31st January 2017

Would a deed of surrender work in this instance

he has not been very nice to my daughter and I would like him out as soon as possible

If so after my daughter signs it 

How long do I give the occupier to vacate the property

he hasn't paid rent for nearly 2 months

and what would the best route to follow

Thanks

[Grampa]

If I am reading this correctly you own the property which you rented out to your daughter?

Just because BF wasn't on the tenancy it doesn't necessary mean he doesn't have a tenancy  and if you took rent from him personally it is arguable that you have inadvertently granted him a tenancy. But read your tenancy agreement because a good one will state any person paying the rent, shall be deemed to have paid it as agent, for the named tenant. 

If you have only taken payment for rent from him once or twice you may be ok but he could argue otherwise if you dont have the above clause as he may take advice.

You could speak to him and explain your daughter has given notice to end the tenancy on 31.01.17 so you will be taking back possession on that date. How he responds to that may direct you to a particular course of action.

If he argues he has a tenancy your only options would be to serve either/both a s21 and section 8 to the property in the name of your daughter and possibility also him (but not sure) using grounds 8,10,11 and gain possession via a court order. 

[Thermoman]

Yes I have owned the property for 5 years my daughter was to get hb but she had to go in to hospital

the council was ok with that because I haven't just brought I haven't done it for profit

the bf has done a lot of bad things to my daughter and I want him out as soon as possible

he wants me to end the tennancy so he can get hb somewhere else

but if the council asks us if he paid his rent then we would have to say no the he would have made his self homeless 

he will not speak to us 

how would it work with the deed of surrender 

there seems to be plenty of forms on the net but it's not very clear on the rules around it

I will look at the contract for the points you have mentioned

i appreciate your reply

thanks

[Carryon Regardless]

The council won't ask you of the situation, they will ask the T but that's no concern of yours.

If your daughter presents you with the deed of surrender that closes the tenancy, as Grampa says if HE is paying rent he might claim to be in a tenancy with you. My view here is that at present a tenancy exists between you and your daughter and this man. Either tenant can surrender a tenancy. The date of the deed would show that he hasn't entered into a new tenancy after your daughter quit, so she is quiting the joint tenancy, From then he has no legal right to occupy, but the repossession could be complicated if he's awkward. And of course he can claim anything and then the court decides.

If he wants to leave and depend on housing assistance surely his showing a copy of the deed and demonstrating the date of his homelessness should suffice.

Be careful with a section 21 or section 8 as that might show you are attempting to terminate an existing tenancy. That might be a contradiction.

 

[Thermoman]

He hasn't got a copy of the tennancy only my daughter

so who's name would I put on the section 21 or deed of surrender

we did it for my daughter we even furnished the whole house 

we didn't put him on the tennancy because we had a feeling but you can't tell your daughter who to choose

thanks

[Grampa]

If you serve a s21 and or s8 to the property in your daughters name only you are not acknowledging him as a tenant but could fall back on them to get ALL occupiers out via the courts if necessary and you could argue (if it came to it) that he was only a guest of your daughter the tenant without tenant rights.. 

I dont think your daughter needs to sign a deed of surrender. All she needs to do is is write a letter addressed to the landlord stating she will not be renewing her tenancy and handing back possession on xx/xx/xx.

You will have to either talk or write to the occupier (give copy of above letter) so they are aware BUT BE VERY CAREFUL with what else you say/write. You could state you will be entering the  property on xx/xx/xx and if there is anyone in the building they will be reported to the police for squatting which is now a criminal offence in residential properties.

 

[Carryon Regardless]

I considered the squatting angle Grampa, but 2 thoughts crossed my mind.

This man has been granted access by the daughter, there is no unlawful entry. It's reasonable to assume he will have keys also.

The police, generally, consider these issues to be the owners problem. I would be interested to 'learn' if the police have been pro active in real squatter situations.

 

I go along with S21 / 8 on the daughter only, after all as a fall back it can end up in the bin when it suits. It  / they will need to be served at the property so 'he' will see it, even if not addressed to him.

It seems there is advantage in providing good evidence of 'he' becoming homeless, in the hope he has intention of organising his own future. Armed with legislative knowledge, and some bluff, I would attempt a face to face meet. 

Actually as he isn't a tenant, aside from the complication of him having paid some rent, isn't he already homeless ?

[Grampa]

15 minutes ago, Carryon Regardless said:

I considered the squatting angle Grampa, but 2 thoughts crossed my mind.

This man has been granted access by the daughter, there is no unlawful entry. It's reasonable to assume he will have keys also.

The police, generally, consider these issues to be the owners problem. I would be interested to 'learn' if the police have been pro active in real squatter situations.

Yes I agree with the above and acknowledge if the plod come out you would have to try to force their hand into doing anything as they would take the "this is a civil matter that we cant get involved with". I guess you could quote squatting laws at them and threaten to report them if they dont take action which may or may not help the situation. 

Another angle is the BF is a lodger of the daughter so therefore could be locked out and the locks changed.

I suppose the bottom line is, it doesn't matter how right, wrong or shaded grey area of law you are sitting in it only matters if it goes to court and as we know a lot more people threaten to go to court than actually do.

So I advise the Mitchell Brothers go round with a big stick and a xmas card. 

[Grampa]

Just thought, what if the daughter reports to the police that an invited guest will now not leave her home and she is scared to go back in and therefore homeless from a legal tenancy. Surely the police would get involved then?? Maybe a trip to the local cop shop for their take on on the situation. Just say he was a lodger and not a tenant so has no tenancy rights.  

[Carryon Regardless]

In this case would the police suggest the daughter start repossession proceedings?

[Thermoman]

He has got keys to the house and said I have changed the locks I have my right to privercy 

if you try and enter I will call the police

he thinks he is above the law

nothing seems to bother him he even goes in to a supermarket eats the food and walks out or even a resteraunt 

you get the picture  he is difficult

thanks

[Melboy]

1.  He is not a "squatter" so forget that route for possession.

2. The tenancy is your Daughter's name so all the legal paperwork and discussion should be completed through her and yourself.

3. The person living there has no legal right to be there other than he was a "guest" of your Daughter. The problem is it is going to take court action to get him out as he has clearly demonstrated that he has no intention of leaving. No court judge is going to back him because of his current actions and changing the locks also will lead to down-fall. The problem is you are going to have prove your case for possession and that takes time and money..........and controlled patience.  Good Luck.

[Thermoman]

Oh and anther thing 

he got the environmental health in to the property from the council

he said the cooker don't work the fire in the front room all the electrics etc a long list

we phone the council told them what he was like

they went around then phoned us and said I don't know what he is complaining about the only thing

i can see is that the fire alarms after to be interlinked now in a rented property (is that true?)

and now we have to have a check on all the electrics 

also for future reference is there a recommended ast downloadable contract 

thanks

[Carryon Regardless]

So not as simple as him wishing to be evicted so he can get housing from the council then. Even then any offer by the council would likely be a hostel type set up and not as appealing as his own pad (yours).

He isn't just abusive he has some knowledge of his rights, ether from tinternet, guy down at the pub, or wherever and that can be dangerous. Often wrong but he has nowt to lose, all cost and effort is now down to you. Recovery of expenses and lost rents will be written off.

A back hander of a few hundred quids is by far the cheaper and swiftest option, following his departure and signed declaration to say as much, witnessed.

I feel that although he isn't on the AST and was taken in as a guest a judge would sympathise with him claiming to be tenant. Assumed, he has been there for a considerable period, and with your knowledge, after all it is your daughter.

Assumed, he has contributed to payments of rent, you have said he has paid rents since your daughters departure. Maybe he has even received HB for your property?

He isn't a squatter, I feel he has become far more than a guest as he has been given right of sole occupation by the person in possession, your daughter.

Now, as said, I would serve S21 and 8 on your daughter, at the property and in her hand to demonstrate she is aware. She signs receipt.

She offers no defence in court so possession is granted, if he defends, unlikely, you still get possession. Then onto bailiffs to hoof him if needed.

Alternative, some one with stature offers him the back hander, I wouldn't attempt more persuasive methods as he sounds like he is aware of the illegal eviction scenario.

 

BTW, I've had tenants call in the housing enforcement officer to create a reason for not paying rent, they haven't enjoyed success as yet. If I am aware of such action I make contact and offer to go along on their visit, that gains a favourable response and shows more than a don't care attitude.

The officer would like to see all properties as palaces and may try to encourage us to carry out unnecessary works. He will raise a report for you. I would ring prior to that and politely request that he detail the relevant legislation that applies to the works requested / suggested. When he reads the legislation you may find the works aren't requested any longer. Already he has the measure of the abusers try on.

 

[Thermoman]

Very complicated situation

i think I will go down the route of section 21? I think

is it fact that in rented property you have to have the smoke alarms linked and powered by electric or they just being over zealous

 Thanks

[Richlist]

* Do rental properties need a smoke alarm = yes, one on each floor.

* They need to be working at the start of the tenancy.

* The landlord and tenant should sign a form confirming they work start of the tenancy.

* All new properties since, I think 1990, are built (part of the building regs) with mains powered smoke alarms.

I've had properties with non working mains powered smoke alarms ( built since 1990) that have been replaced with battery operated smoke alarms. The properties have had full electrical surveys carried out without this situation being raised as a problem.

So, using common sense, I don't see a problem if they were battery operated and non mains electrically linked.

Just ask him to provide the legislation that shows you are required to conform to his requirements......no legal requirement means you don't have to comply.

I'm happy to be proved wrong.

[Thermoman]

That's what I thought 

it said to install a grade D  LD3 electrically operated fire detection system with interlinked smoke alarm in accordance with BS 5839-6

the property was built about 1950s

[Mortitia]

If you want a Deed of Surrender that will survive the courts Thermoman email me privately.  I would try to pay him to go and get and D of S signed by him.  S21 takes so long and you may well have to get the bailiff in to evict - more money and grief.

[Grampa]

Now are you sure you didnt serve a section 21 on your daughter 2 months ago. I am sure if you asked her she would remember and if so you can start the proceeding when the 2 months ended which is shortly.

[Thermoman]

Sounds like some good advice there

i think I can remember my daughter serving a section 21 awhile ago ?

What about informing him of this ?

how does that work

thanks

[Grampa]

No, you would have served one on your daughter. 

[Carryon Regardless]

Well considered Grampa, that could well reduce the cost of any back hander.

[Grampa]

12 hours ago, Thermoman said:

Sounds like some good advice there

i think I can remember my daughter serving a section 21 awhile ago ?

What about informing him of this ?

how does that work

thanks

He would be informed  by the court (by letter addressed to your daughter) after you you start the possession proceedings.

[Melboy]

1. Interlinked 240v mains smoke fire alarms are not a mandatory installation on your 1950 property. Battery operated will suffice on each floor level. HMO's do have to have the mains interlinked type installed.

2. It is still not a legal requirement to have the 10 year electrical inspection certificate for your property. Doesn't mean I  agree with that...... it is just a fact.  I do have the electrical inspection certificates for my properties.

[Thermoman]

Thanks for all this advice 

I hope it's helping other people who are reading these posts

although I don't think most people would be in a situation like this

but might be able to pick out bits they need

thanks