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Jouma

Fraud

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Tenancy given due to false information, you can repossess on those grounds.

If there is need to recover losses claim against the g'tor, when he denies responsibility due to forged signature involve the police for fraud. This is only for satisfaction unless you feel you can recover some monies.

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You don't say whether they have left the property?  If they have not then there are grounds in law for eviction on the grounds of forgery which is a criminal offence.

If they have left then it will be up to you if you want to go down the legal route which will require some investigative work on your behalf as it might cost you more than it's actually worth.

A timely reminder to all landlord's to actually check in person, if at all possible, that the guarantor is aware of what they are signing up for to avoid future misunderstandings or legal issues.

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I have difficulty understanding why someone would be so trusting to accept a document with a guarantor signature without checking. 

On the very, very rare occasions that we accept a guarantor (usually we take rent guarantee insurance as an alternative) my Agent insists on the guarantor going in to their office with proof of identity and to sign the document in the office.

 

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I have turned down quite a few prospective tenants in past years for not willing/unable to provide a guarantor.  My guarantors must be property owning. I visit them at their home address and explain exactly what is required in the event of a non paying tenant and they sign the document. I have never had to call upon a guarantor though in 25 plus years.

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I use the deed provided by Grampa some time back.

That requires the G'tors signature to be witnessed anyway, a requirement of a deed and let's face no deed no real responsibility.

Sign up is at the property. We all three sign onto the AST. G'tor and witness only for the deed. The only time I went along with a variation I insisted the distant G'tor went to a solicitor who would witness (and stamp), the process failed. Passports (or similar for both required), mine as well if ever asked for.

Nowadays, aside from possible visit to existing properties (T & G'tior), for £3 I carry out a LR check. If there are doubts to there being reasonable equity I ask to see 12 months mortgage statement..

I work on a good impression of them (possible faulty). As the G'tor is the real chance of recovery it's them I concern myself with.

 

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There are advantages of the guarantee being a deed one being it is viewed as a more "heavyweight" contract the other is it doesn't need "consideration" which it practical terms means it can be signed after the tenancy has started where a non deed contract couldnt.

Now you might thing the timing of the signing isnt really a issue because it is unlikely you are going to have the need to sign a guarentee mid-tenancy but think on this. Do you remember when it was the norm to sign a S21 on the same day as the tenancy started? A lot of landlords and agents use to do this but there was a few eviction cases where the tenant argued the S21 was signed before the AST was signed (because they was no times just dates) and therefore invalid.

So using the same train of thought if the guarentor signs up (non deed agreement) on the same day as the tenancy starts he could argue he signed AFTER the tenancy started and therefore invalid.

Just a thought.

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I can see that argument.

In my case the AST will not get my signature until formalities are complete. That is, my AST signature is the last action before presenting keys. W/o my signature the AST hasn't been agreed so not yet started.

In the old days of serving the S21 at tenancy start I viewed that giving keys, shaking hands and welcoming them to the tenancy was the seal of agreement i.e. start of tenancy.

All can be argued in court of course, and we know where sympathy generally lies. The problem here is that to have the deed completed (dated) before the AST is far from acceptable from a business point. For example I will drive 80 miles one way for a tenancy sign up, even if local there would be too much time spent.

I can't speak for others but the risk  / reward consideration in this business goes too far and fast toward risk being greater. The naive LL is such an easy target nowadays.

 

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I acknowledge the risk is small but you only need one smart arsed legal aid solicitor to put the kibosh on a possession hearing. (which I have experienced once) I am a big believer of trying to cover all the bases.I am throughout the year tweaking our application forms, tenancy agreements and policies just to have that edge over the tenant and our competitors.

Doesn't mean we get it right all the time, far from it but if anything doesn't go as well as it could I see that as a lesson and the start of another tweak.

  

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Something like learning from our mistakes eh Grampa,

except most of the time it wasn't a mistake until some wannabe shows us how they can abuse us. I'm not sure it's possible to foresee where this industry will be next year so we can plan in advance, that's the lesson I take from its history anyway.

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I know exactly where I'm going to be next year.

1. Totally mortgage free. Have spent the last few years working diligently towards this goal.

2. Ready to book my 4 month world cruise.

3. In receipt of my pension and more retired than I am now.....able to decide how many hours a week I want to work.

4. Topping up my tan in Spain far more than I have done this year.

It's a tough life but some of us have to put up with it !? 

 

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and good luck to yer,

I was how ever referring to the ever increasing legislative hoops we need to jump through. The number of them and their complexity by design must cause us to fail in one way or another.

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Well, as far as I can recall, none of them seem to have tripped me up yet.

It's the same way that some of us just don't get parking tickets or speeding fines. It's really down to making sure we are reading the rules and complying with requirements......and a light sprinkling of luck.

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2 hours ago, Richlist said:

Well, as far as I can recall, none of them seem to have tripped me up yet.

It's the same way that some of us just don't get parking tickets or speeding fines. It's really down to making sure we are reading the rules and complying with requirements......and a light sprinkling of luck.

Great way of putting it RL couldnt agree more.

Or of course making sure you dont get caught:D

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I guess you both had a light sprinkling of luck over the DPS debacle a couple years back when no one knew if they should retake deposits, reserve prescribed info, or in fact do nowt regarding new tenancies, existing tenancies and very old existing tenancies.

At least some effort has been applied to rationalise the 21a and 21b removing some potential for confusion.

As for reading the rules to be aware, if they weren't amended so often there would be more chance of the more average LL doing this. Even the judges in the CC seem to need reminding of the legislation now and again.

 

 

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On 14/11/2016 at 8:13 PM, Jouma said:

 

The DPS issue you mention was a couple of years back, as I remember it was the court case of Superstrike Ltd vs Marino Rodriguez and the Court of Appeal judgement which caused some confusion. What I did was to reissue the prescribed information to each of my tenants and have them each sign to say they had received it. So, not much luck involved with that, just some admin, photocopying and filing, job done.

I do have some sympathy for landlords but only because the workload is increasing as time goes by. Personally I like doing paperwork I also like solving problems and thinking my way around issues. If you don't, then I can understand how it can become a problem for you.

The secret of sucess is to keep smiling. ?

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14 hours ago, Carryon Regardless said:

 

As for reading the rules to be aware, if they weren't amended so often there would be more chance of the more average LL doing this. Even the judges in the CC seem to need reminding of the legislation now and again.

 

You sure arent wrong there.

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